§ 2.48 p.m.
§ LORD ORR-EWINGMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are satisfied that an adequate expansion is planned for the teaching of modern languages in teacher training colleges to meet the need of modern language teachers in primary, middle and secondary schools.
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION AND SCIENCE (LORD BELSTEAD)My Lords, the main limiting factor is the number of students coming forward for training, but my right honourable friend has arranged for additional places to be available to meet the expected expansion of demand for training places from graduates.
§ LORD ORR-EWINGMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that in the Greater 387 London area, for every student at a teachers' training college who is being trained in modern languages, four are being trained in sociology and five in drama? Does he think this is a realistic approach to the needs of the nation for the next two or three decades?
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, I think the noble Lord is concerned with the training of people for the teaching of languages. What the noble Lord might like to know is that between the years 1969 and 1972 the numbers of post-graduates training for teaching had increased by a third. I referred in my Answer to my right honourable friend's making additional places available; in fact the number of additional places being made available for 1973–74 is 200.
§ LORD MAYBRAY-KINGMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the figures given by his noble friend Lord Orr-Ewing are alarming? Does he not agree that while on the other hand in the teaching of modern languages in our schools since the War there has been a revolution in methods, in apparatus and so on, the goal of his Department must be that every normal child in Britain grows up at least bilingual in a Europe where many children have at least three languages, and that anything we can do to stimulate training colleges to provide a greater supply of modern language teachers is very important indeed?
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, I think that the objectives of the Government are the same as those of the noble Lord, I will certainly, however, draw my right honourable friend's attention to what the noble Lord, Lord Maybray-King, has said.
§ BARONESS EMMET OF AMBERLEYMy Lords, as I believe there is at the moment an investigation into teacher training colleges, would my noble friend agree that this would be the right time to impress on the headmasters—or whatever they are called—there, that they should encourage their young students to go away with at least one language at the end of their course?
§ LORD BELSTEADOnce again, my Lords, I do not think that the view of the Government differs in the least from 388 what the noble Baroness has said. I do not know whether the noble Baroness is referring to an important piece of research which is nearing completion now and which is a survey entitled "The Initial Training of Teachers of Modern Foreign Languages in Colleges and Departments of Education". Your Lordships may like to know that this is almost completed and may give us some answers which will be of interest and which very possibly will bear out what noble Lords have said.
§ LORD STRABOLGIMay I ask the noble Lord whether the Government will aim for the introduction of the direct method in all modern language classes, so that the language itself is the only one allowed to be spoken? Would they not agree that this is the only satisfactory way to teach a modern language?
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, I am sure that those who are responsible for the curriculum in this country, namely local education authorities and the managers and governors of voluntary schools, will look with interest at what the noble Lord has said.
§ LORD ORR-EWINGMy Lords, will my noble friend tell the House how many schools in this country have to give up the teaching of modern languages because they lack teachers qualified to undertake this discipline? If he does not have that answer readily available, perhaps we can arrange for a Written Answer so that the House may be better informed on this serious inadequacy.
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, I am afraid that I do not have the answer which the noble Lord is seeking; but the number of primary school children who are being taught one language is in excess of 35 per cent. at the moment and the number of secondary school pupils who are being taught a language is, I understand, in excess of 70 per cent. I have no reason to believe that those percentages are not right.
§ LORD STRABOLGIMy Lords, why cannot the Government arrange for the introduction of foreign language masters? Why should public schools be the only ones that have foreign professors.
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, some year or so ago the number of teacher 389 exchanges between this country and Europe was almost nil. The Government are planning for the most rapid acceleration of teacher exchanges between this country and Europe that has ever been known.
§ LORD ROBBINSMy Lords, would the noble Lord agree that the root of the trouble inspiring this Question and the exchange of views which has taken place via questions since it was put is the ultra-specialisation in schools, compelled by the entrance requirements of universities at the present time?
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, I must reserve judgment on behalf of my right honourable friend on that point, until any recommendation comes from the Schools Council, which is the advisory body to my right honourable friend on examination matters.
§ LORD THOMASMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that it is not practical to have a full appreciation either of sociology or international drama without a woirking knowledge of international languages?
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, once again I believe that anyone who reads this question and answer exchange will take that on board and be interested in what the noble Lord feels.
§ LORD GORE-BOOTHMy Lords, would the Minister agree that it is very important in this age to take advantage of the great change in the character of our youth, who have shed the inhibitions of our generation about being heard to have anything to do with a foreign language and now are natural and keen about it?
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, I entirely agree. When the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, got to the point in his question about the "root of the problem" I wondered whether he was going to say that that root was that so many of us, perhaps even Members of your Lordships' House, who learned one or two foreign languages when we were very young, are unfortunately unable to speak them now. It is for that reason that the Government are pleased to be able to say that there is an increase in postgraduates going into teacher-training; it is for that reason that we are pleased 390 to be able to say that we have made available 200 extra places; it is for that reason that we are especially pleased to say that we have this enormous acceleration in the exchange programme between this country, France and Germany; and finally, it is for that reason that it is of great importance that there is now going to be an expansion of in-service training for the teaching profession, the like of which has never been seen before.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, when the noble Lord said that 70 per cent. of secondary school pupils are now having language instruction, does he believe that that is the full story? Is he aware that I was speaking to my granddaughter yesterday and asking about her progress with French? She said, "Well, we haven't had a French lesson for over a month". Therefore, is the language instruction that is being given in secondary schools quite as extensive and intensive as the noble Lord would have us believe? Furthermore, may I ask him whether full use is being made of electronic language laboratories, which have proved themselves in the universities to be an enormous success?
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, as an ornament to the local government world, the noble Lord will know that his granddaughter's question is for the local authority and not for Her Majesty's Government. The percentage increase in expenditure on non-teaching costs, which is, of course, the relevant factor when we are talking about audio-visual aids and things of that kind, is 3 per cent. or 3½ per cent. per year.
§ LORD MAYBRAY-KINGMy Lords, in view of what has been said from the Opposition Front Bench, may I ask whether the Minister is aware that modern languages are being taught by the direct method in all our schools and have been so taught for a long time?
§ LORD SNOWMy Lords, will the noble Lord take care that the first supplementary question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Orr-Ewing, is brought to the attention of his Department, for the distribution of persons who are being trained for teaching, or indeed for most other professional training in this country, is absurdly disproportionate to the needs of society or to our intellectual needs. That 391 is a subject to which we must pay attention.
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, a great deal of information has crossed the Floor of the House in this question and answer session. May I now take away what noble Lords have said and draw it all to the attention of my right honourable friend?