HL Deb 28 February 1973 vol 339 cc625-8

2.45 p.m.

LORD BROCKWAY

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will officially protest against the detention of Mr. Niesewand, the B.B.C. and Guardian correspondent in Rhodesia.

BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE

My Lords, we have been in touch with the Rhodesian authorities about the arrest of Mr. Niesewand. They have told us that he has been detained on security grounds. I understand that Mr. Niesewand has appealed against his detention.

LORD BROCKWAY

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that Answer and I congratulate her on her attendance here, which I am sure is much more interesting than the other meeting. May I ask her this question? Is it not an outrage that this correspondent of the B.B.C., the Guardian and the Observer, whose objective reports have informed many of us about the conditions in Rhodesia, should now be detained by this illegal Government? Although he is a Rhodesian citizen, is it not the responsibility of Her Majesty's Government to recognise that Mr. Niesewand is also a British citizen of the United Kingdom and of the Commonwealth, and to act very energetically on his behalf?

BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE

My Lords, as I think I said in my original reply in other words, we have drawn to Mr. Smith's attention the very serious concern felt in this country over Mr. Niesewand's detention. So far as British responsibility is concerned, I understand that Mr. Niesewand was born in South Africa and has lived in Rhodesia for some time. Although he has taken out Rhodesian citizenship it is not clear whether he did so before U.D.I. If he did so after U.D.I. his exact national status may be in doubt. However, as I said earlier, he has appealed and therefore I cannot go more into the merits of the case.

LORD WADE

My Lords, I may not have heard correctly what the noble Baroness said. May I ask whether any representations or protests have been made by Her Majesty's Government, officially or unofficially?

BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE

My Lords, I said in my original reply that we had been in touch with the Rhodesian authorities about the arrest of Mr. Niesewand. They told us that he has been detained on security grounds. We did, of course, at the same time point out the great concern felt in this country and I understand that he has appealed against his detention.

2.48 p.m.

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, before we go on to the next Motion ought not the Government now to consider—at least the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn has arrived! It really is not fair to the noble Lord, Lord Tanlaw, that he should have to start a very important debate in a House which is still, so far as the Conservative Party is concerned, occupied elsewhere. I would not object to 5 or 10 minutes adjournment.

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS

Hear, hear!

LORD SHACKLETON

I particularly do not want to propose that the House should adjourn because the Government would almost certainly think that that was an attempt to wreck their meeting upstairs, and that I do not want to do. This is the Liberals' day, but we need to look at this matter as a House. It is now nearly ten minutes to 3 and we still do not have the Conservative Party present, although we have now a splendid lot of Front-Benchers and the Deputy Leader.

LORD BYERS

My Lords, this really is a most remarkable situation. I should have thought that this was one of the most important Motions that the House has had to deal with so far this Session. As I observe very few of the people who are going to speak are in the Chamber at this time. May we be told what is the estimated duration of this meeting which is going on elsewhere? Would it not be better to adjourn?

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS

Hear, hear!

THE MINISTER OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY (LORD ABERDARE)

My Lords, I find myself in some difficulty. It is not usual to require the attendance of noble Lords at a debate, and as your Lordships are aware, there is another event occurring at the moment. But if it is your Lordships' feeling that it would be better to postpone the debate I should have thought that in another ten minutes we should find that we had a fuller House. Otherwise, perhaps we might go ahead and I will see what arrangements I can make.

LORD CHORLEY

My Lords, may we pass a message to that other place? I do not mean the usual "other place", I mean another place where a meeting is going on.

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord the Deputy Leader for his sensitivity in this matter. It is, I think we all agree, an unprecedented occasion. Of course, noble Lords are absent on occasion; but I believe that this House, and attendance in it, is the first requirement. I think it looks as if we do not bother about our proceedings if a lot of people are absent. We acknowledge that the Prime Minister is a very busy man, and I intend no discourtesy to him, but I think that if the noble Lord would himself take the initiative of (I cannot remember the exact terms of the Motion) adjourning during pleasure until a certain hour—and when I say "a certain hour", I would hope it would not be more than ten minutes—I think this would be the easiest way out. We do not waste much time, and I think it would look very bad if we went on.

LORD MAELOR

My Lords, may we be assured that the Tories have not gone on strike to-day?

LORD ABERDARE

Yes, my Lords, I can give the noble Lord that assurance. I should like to fall in with the proposal of the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition, and propose that we adjourn for ten minutes until three o'clock, if that is the feeling of the House. Meanwhile, I will ensure that a message is conveyed to noble Lords in the "other place".

[The Sitting was suspended at eight minutes before three o'clock and resumed at three o'clock.]