HL Deb 27 February 1973 vol 339 cc615-9

7.19 p.m.

LORD WINDLESHAM rose to move, That the Draft Births, Deaths and Marriages (Northern Ireland) Order 1973, laid before the House on January 24 be approved. The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Order is a straightforward measure and, I hope, in the light of the previous debate, an uncontentious one. It is concerned with the setting-up of a new registration service for births, deaths and marriages in Northern Ireland. This will be based on the twenty-six new district councils which will result from local government reorganisation later in the year. In operating the service the councils will be acting as agents of the Ministry of Finance, and all expenditure will be borne on central funds. I understand that the expenditure is running at about £66,000 per annum. At present there are 120 registrars' offices in Northern Ireland, the majority of them open for a few hours only each week. The intention is to man the new register offices full-time. There will probably be about 35 to 40 full-time officials. Registration facilities will also be available at maternity hospitals where well over 90 per cent. of all births take place. Even should the birth not be registered there, it can be registered in the district in which the mother of the child lives.

The Order allows for the recording of one change of forename and one change of surname under the age of 18; and thereafter one change of forename and three of surname. This will enable a person to produce a birth certificate in the name by which he is generally known. This follows Scottish practice; there is no English provision at present, but perhaps Scotland and Northern Ireland are ahead here. The methods of changing name (by deed poll, for example) are not affected; we are speaking only of consequent amendments to the birth certificate after the name has been changed by the due process.

In future, the name of the father of an illegitimate child will be entered in the register, provided the mother and father attend together, or the mother attends and produces specified documents. Here again, this is a useful innovation. At the time of registration of a birth, information other than that required for registration may be obtained, but this information together with all information on stillbirths is to be safeguarded and disclosed only in limited circumstances. This Order contains the transitional provisions necessary to ensure that arrangements for marriage started under the existing law may be completed under the new system. My Lords, I beg to move.

Moved, That the Draft Births, Deaths and Marriages (Northern Ireland) Order 1973, laid before the House on January January 24, be approved.—(Lord Windlesham.)

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, there is little that I can say on an Order the complexity of which only increases my admiration for Parliamentary draftsmen and the officials in Stormont or the Northern Ireland Office. Even though I am fairly accustomed to reading Acts of Parliament, were it not for the Explanatory Memorandum with which the noble Lord was good enough to provide us this would have totally defeated me. Quite clearly, this is a useful measure. Having read the debate in another place I was interested in two points. One is that it appears that the arrangements for the marriage code in Northern Ireland were said to be (I cannot quote directly from a speech by an honourable Member in another place) very complex. In so far as this very complex Order helps in this, I am all for it. But there seems to be some doubt as to whether rationalisation and the reduction in the number of officials could be absorbed. I notice that the Parliamentary Secretary, in replying, undertook on no fewer (than three occasions to write to honourable Members saying that he wanted to make sure he got it right, that he was looking into the situation but that it is complex. Another similar reply was that he would write to the honourable Member.

My Lords, I find this rather unsatisfactory. This is a situation that all Ministers are in. I could now start to ask all the questions which were asked in another place and to which I passionately desire to know the answers. May I suggest to the noble Lord that it could be helpful in these interesting matters—we have never got it quite right; we should have Written Answers on every one—for him to consider whether these Answers could be circulated to the comparatively few Members who are interested. The number of Members in this House who have taken part in these Northern Ireland debates is few. I think it is important (and I am sure the noble Lord thinks this) that, although we are very much a "proxy parent" at the moment —we are not really able to do our job as well as we should—those who are prepared to do so should seek to continue to keep an interest and make themselves as fully informed as possible.

One particular point was raised which aroused some interest. It was noteworthy that apparently the death rate in Northern Ireland is lower than anywhere else in the United Kingdom. This may be due to the intrinsically healthy nature of the lives they lead. It may be the strength of the stock; but curiously enough the births trend (as opposed to the death rate) is also contrary to that everywhere else in the British Isles. This point was raised in another place and no explanation was given. There may be no explanation and it may be that the figures (taken, I think, from the Ulster Commentary, a valuable document which some of us read) may have related merely to a single period. If the noble Lord feels like commenting on that I shall be grateful: but it may be it is not important. Perhaps the former Prime Minister of Northern Ireland could explain why the health of the people, or the death rate, is lower there than in the rest of the British Isles and why, since he ceased to be Prime Minister, it seems to be going up.

LORD O'NEILL OF THE MAINE

My Lords, I must rise to that challenge and say to the noble Lord who deals with Northern Ireland affairs in this House that I know very little about this, although I believe it is true that the death rate and the birth rate in Northern Ireland are more favourable than in any other part of the United Kingdom. I will add that I hope that the noble Lord, the Minister who deals with Northern Ireland in this House, realises how fortunate we are to have as Leader of the Opposition someone who has actually lived in Northern Ireland and knows what he is talking about.

LORD WINDLESHAM

My Lords, the arrangements for marriages in Northern Ireland should not be interfered with in any way by this Order. It makes changes only concerning the registration of marriages, not the marriage services or any other aspects of marriage. So far as the point about the death rate is concerned, I believe it is right to say that although the death rate may be lower, it does not necessarily mean that there are fewer deaths in Northern Ireland. The death rate is lower; but, as the noble Lord, Lord O'Neill of the Maine, said, the birth rate is higher. One depends on the other—what is known in the pyramid of population as a "broader base". We might perhaps need to think that out.

In concluding the debate on both of these Orders, let me say that I will certainly consider with my colleagues whether there is some way of communicating information which is sent by Ministers in reply to Questions raised in another place to those noble Lords who might be particularly interested in this House. I hesitate to give an outright assurance. I have a feeling that there may be some convention which says that a letter written by a Minister in the House of Commons to a Member of the House of Commons should not be bandied about whether by me or by anyone else. But I take the point of substance. There may be some other way of overcoming this particular problem.

On Question, Motion agreed to.