RETIRED CIVIL SERVANTS AS PRIVATE CONSULTANTS (Hansard, 20 February 1973)

§ LORD BALOGH
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (EARL JELLICOE)
My Lords, in general former civil servants do not need permission before acting as private consultants in fields in which they are expert. However, where for special reasons under the rules embodied in Estacode permission 3 is necessay, it would fall to the Minister of the Department in which the civil servant concerned had served to give his or her consent.

§ LORD BALOGH
My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for his Answer. Would he not agree with me that, on the whole, it is undesirable that retired civil servants should act in those fields in which they helped to make policy?—and this for two reasons: first, that it is unmistakably confusing to the public that somebody who has shaped public policy should suddenly now engage in the same trade for profit; and secondly, because the shaping of public policy will certainly be influenced by the hope in the high civil servant's mind that he will in the end find a nice niche in the private sector.

EARL JELLICOE
My Lords, there is a balance of quite difficult considerations here, but I would remind the noble Lord of the rules which are set out very clearly in Estacode—Ka 8–9, is, I think, the reference and a copy is in your Lordships' Library. In short, these rules require that: all officers of the rank of Under Secretary or above must obtain the assent of the Government before accepting within two years of retirement offers of employment in business and other bodies with which the Departments or the branches of the Government concerned are as a matter of course in a special relationship. I should have thought that this was about as far as it was right and sensible to try to codify what must be a difficult area where there are questions of subjective judgment.

§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER
My Lords, can the noble Earl give any figures of the number of civil servants of the grade he has mentioned, recently retired, who have in fact taken either private consultancies or directorships in the field in which they were previously operative?

EARL JELLICOE
My Lords, I think it would depend upon the definition of "recently retired". I have not the figures at my fingertips, but if the noble Baroness would like to put down a Question I should be very glad to answer it, or to communicate with her privately.

§ LORD SLATER
My Lords, could the noble Earl say how long such a provision has been in Estacode? I refer to the provision he quoted in his reply to my noble friend. Many of us were always under the impression that, after the retirement of a top civil servant from a particular Department, he could not take up any other form of employment until after a period of two years following his retirement.

EARL JELLICOE
My Lords, I am afraid I did not catch the first part of the noble Lord's question—I apologise.

§ LORD SLATER
My Lords, my question was in regard to the noble Earl's statement on Estacode, which is in the Library. The noble Earl referred to Estacode and I asked whether he was aware of the point I made regarding any top civil servant in any Department. We were always under the impression that such a person could not take up any other form of employment until he had been retired for at least two years from his job in a Department.

EARL JELLICOE
My Lords, I think there must be a misapprehension here. This rule has been in force for quite a considerable time. The noble Lord might like to refresh his memory. I have quoted the particular paragraph concerned, and I would remind your Lordships that the Fulton Report said this: It would be highly regrettable if civil servants did not have valuable contributions to make to other areas of our national life; it should be natural for others to wish to employ them. I suggest that that is a very relevant consideration, but I recognise—and this is recognised in the code concerned—that in special circumstances special considerations must apply.

§ LORD BALOGH
My Lords, would the noble Earl agree that now that Government intervention, or whatever it may be called, has increased in scope and in intensity a continuous reconsideration of these rules would be in order?

EARL JELLICOE
My Lords, I certainly agree that this is a matter which we should keep under review. I have looked at this rule rather carefully in the light of this Question and I personally believe that the rule itself is about right, but to interpret it correctly is not always an easy matter.

LORD INGLEWOOD
My Lords, can my noble friend also say whether similar rules apply to private individuals who have been called in to advise Prime Ministers and who might be said to have helped to frame Government policy?

EARL JELLICOE
My Lords, so far as I know that is not the case.

§ THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE
My Lords, can my noble friend say whether there is any convention in this House which would relate to that aspect of our affairs?

EARL JELLICOE
My Lords, I am not certain that we have an Estacode of this sort ourselves, but I think we have kept well within our conventions in dealing with this matter. There have been no names and no pack drill, and I think that is quite right.

§ LORD PEDDIE
My Lords, would the noble Earl not agree that quite apart from the question under immediate consideration there is particular advantage in a two-way movement between members of the Civil Service and industry as a whole?

EARL JELLICOE
My Lords, I would agree wholeheartedly, and it has been one of my responsibilities to do what I can to encourage that two-way movement.

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, in his first supplementary answer the noble Earl said that a civil servant on retirement would need the permission of the Government: in practice is this the Permanent Under-Secretary, the Secretary of State or the Prime Minister?

EARL JELLICOE
My Lords, it is only special circumstances that are covered by Estacode and then it is within the responsibility of the Minister in charge of the Department in which the civil servant has served.