SALMON AND MIGRATORY TROUT (NORTH-EAST ATLANTIC) ORDER 1972

HL Deb 08 February 1973 vol 338 cc1202-7

6.23 p.m.

EARL FERRERS rose to move, That the Salmon and Migratory Trout (North-East Atlantic) Order 1972, be approved. The noble Earl said: My Lords, it may be for the convenience of your Lordships if we discussed at the same time the two following Prohibition Orders which stand in my name. These three Orders replace the existing Salmon and Migratory Trout (Prohibition of Fishing) Order 1971 which expires on February 14, 1973, and it may be helpful if I refer first to the North-East Atlantic Order. This would prohibit fishing for salmon and migratory trout by British fishing vessels in the North-East Atlantic Fisheries Convention area outside British fishery limits. The existing Order was made in the light of the Resolution passed by the North-East Atlantic Fisheries Commission in 1970. The Order now before your Lordships would continue this arrangement for ten years. The Government think that this is a reasonable length of time in which to take a view of the working of the conservation arrangements. The period of operation for which it is suggested that this Order should operate coincides with the length of operation of the other two Orders now before the House.

The Prohibition of Fishing Order would also replace arrangements which are embodied in the current Prohibition Order, which expires in the middle of this month. It is designed to prohibit fishing for salmon and migratory trout off the coasts of England and Wales outside our exclusive fishery limits. Such fishing has, under existing arrangements, been controlled in the waters off England and Wales through a licensing system operated by river authorities and the Ministry of Agriculture. No change of substance is proposed under the new Order, but with the agreement of those concerned its effect is that river authorities or their successors will now become solely responsible for the issue of licences to fishermen who wish to catch salmon and migratory trout.

The Ministry of Agriculture has a comparatively small role. It used to be the role of issuing licences for use in the three to twelve-mile belt of our fishery limits. This will now cease and those who are in the best position to decide on the issue of licences—namely, the river authorities or their successors—will undertake the whole task in the nought to six-mile belt of water for which they have responsibility.

The No. 2 Prohibition Order would, as under the arrangements made in the existing Order, continue the prohibition of all fishing for salmon and migratory trout by all fishing boats in British fishery limits off the Scottish coast. Separate Orders are desirable in this instance not only on grounds of simplicity but in case, for example, legislation were to be introduced affecting the position in Scottish waters. The duration of this particular Order is therefore uncertain, although provision is made in it to continue it for ten years, like the other Orders. If a change in the control arrangements off Scotland were to be made, that could of course be done without affecting the other two Orders which I have described. I beg to move.

Moved, That the Salmon and Migratory Trout (North-East Atlantic) Order 1972, be approved.—(Earl Ferrers.)

6.27 p.m.

LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE

My Lords, before we part with these Orders there is some information which I should like the Government to give the House. First, when, oh! when, is the promised legislation coming? The Minister mentioned it but we have been waiting eleven years for legislation based on the Report of the Hunter Commission. If my noble friend could say that it is coming during this Session of Parliament, many of us would be greatly relieved.

Secondly, I should like information in respect of the Southern part of the Northumbrian River Authority, where what I would call an open-door for drift net fishing has existed and which has done much to nullify the good effects of the drift net prohibition in Scotland. In a debate a year ago the then Minister of State for Scotland, the noble Baroness, Lady Tweedsmuir of Belhelvie, admitted that the number of licences in that particular area had leapt to the enormous figure of 240. It was, however, she said, hoped gradually to reduce the number of licences to 40, which would be a reasonable figure. Indeed, I regret to say that Scotsmen were coming down to Northumberland to get licences from that local authority, so popular was the obtaining of licences there and so comparatively easy was it to get them, and then they were able to drift net in places where drift-netting should not have taken place. Can the Minister say how far the hopes of the then Minister of State have been justified? Is the total down to forty or some similar figure?

The third piece of information I should like is in regard to fishing off Greenland. Will that be reduced as the result of one of these Orders now before us? I welcome these Instruments as one, like many other noble Lords, who is anxious to see this noble fish preserved not only for sport but for food and commercial purposes in the United Kingdom. This is the first breakthrough we have had, thanks to the North-East Atlantic Conference and to Danish resistance to a position which was untenable from their point of view. It is a start. It is not the whole distance; but I am grateful for it, and I know that many others will be pleased that these Orders are before your Lordships to-night.

6.30 p.m.

LORD WALSTON

My Lords, I intervene very briefly to welcome these Orders. I do so as somebody who, some 18 months ago, presented a report to the Council of Europe on this subject which, I am glad to say, was accepted there. It is good to know that Her Majesty's Government are taking this very necessary and valuable action. The only point I would stress, which I am sure the noble Earl has very much at heart, is the need to continue watching the situation, particularly in the North Atlantic. What is being done at present is certainly a step in the right direction. It may well be an adequate step; it may be that there is no need to do any more than this. But knowledge so far is insufficient. We have to watch very carefully to make sure that the stocks do not diminish and that the steps which have been taken already by Her Majesty's Government and by other Governments are indeed adequate. If they are not, then we must be prepared to act very quickly. So in welcoming this Order I urge upon Her Majesty's Government the need continually to watch the situation and not to delay if it appears necessary to take any more drastic steps than have been taken at present.

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Balfour of Inchrye and the noble Lord, Lord Walston, for giving these Orders the welcome that they have done because we are all at one in wishing to conserve the salmon stocks and the salmon situation. My noble friend asked, "When will the Hunter Report be put forward in the form of legislation?" I know that that is a matter which greatly concerns him and a number of other people, particularly North of the Border, and I can assure your Lordships that it is the Government's firm intention to introduce a Bill as soon as it can be fitted into the Parliamentary timetable. Whether or not it will be possible to do so in the current Session will depend upon the progress of the business we have in hand. But I can assure my noble friend that it is our intention that this should be done as soon as is possible.

My noble friend referred also to the situation with regard to the drift-netting off the North-East coast of England, and he particularly asked for the position with regard to licences given by the Southern part of the Northumbrian River Authority. It is perfectly true that over the last few years, in fact back in 1970 only, there was considerable drift-netting there and the number of licences issued in 1970 was 148. It then went up to 254 and is now down to 91. That figure will revert to 40; but as my noble friend will know, anyone who has had a licence one year has a licence of right to have it another year and it is, therefore, a question only, as it were, of wastage until we get down to the figure of 40. But while on that point, I am sure that my noble friend would be interested to know that the actual number of salmon and grilse caught in 1970 was nearly 31,000 while in 1972 it was down to 6,000.

He referred also, as did the noble Lord, Lord Walston, to the situation with regard to the fishing off Greenland in the high seas. Of course this has been the very great concern of this country for some years, and this particular fishing developed rapidly only over recent years. We are anxious that steps should be taken to safeguard the stocks in this area from over-fishing because there is no doubt that many of the salmon caught there would have returned to our own rivers. Various taggings that were done of salmon show that of 22 fish which were tagged in Greenland, ten were found in the home waters in North America, five in Scotland, four in Ireland, and three in England and Wales, which shows that salmon in that area would, or might, have returned to their home waters.

The only way in which this can be controlled effectively is by international agreement and we are members of the International Commission for the North-West Atlantic Fisheries. That particular body has considerd this matter in its last six meetings. In 1970 agreement was reached upon a resolution under which most countries accepted a complete ban on fishing. But the other countries who could not go quite so far agreed to limit their effort to the 1969 levels. In addition—and I believe that this is an important point—agreement has been reached for the phasing out of fishing for salmon by all non-Greenland vessels by the end of 1975. While I recognise that this does not go as far as some people would wish it to go, it is fair to say that the measures which have been taken will go a long way towards safeguarding the stocks, and I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Walston, that we shall watch this point; but, in the end, one can only get it by international agreement. My Lords, I hope that your Lordships approve the first Order which stands in my name.

On Question, Motion agreed to.