HL Deb 08 February 1973 vol 338 cc1152-4

3.50 p.m.

EARL ST. ALDWYN

My Lords, I understand that on Tuesday afternoon, while the European Instruments Committee was hearing evidence in Committee Room 2 upstairs, a Division was called in the House. This was not communicated to the Committee, with the results that a number of members of the Committee, who would have voted, missed the Division. I share the concern which has been expressed to me that all Peers should be given an opportunity of voting if they so wish. I therefore investigated the causes of this failure, and I am sorry to find that on this occasion the standard arrangements for communicating a Division to Members of the Committee failed in two respects. First, the bell in that particular Committee Room was not turned on as it should have been; secondly, the normal chain of oral communications from the corridor outside the Committee Room to the Chairman of the Committee failed to operate.

Yesterday I reviewed the existing arrangements, in consultation with Black Rod and the Clerk of the Parliaments, and I think it would be helpful if I spelt them out so that in future everyone concerned knows what the proper course of action is when a Division Bell is sounded. When a Committee of the House is sitting upstairs, in addition to the Bell, which will normally ring in the room itself, the right procedure is for the custodian or the policeman on duty outside the Committee Room to inform the Doorkeeper on duty inside the Committee Room, who will then inform the Clerk, who shall tell the Chairman of the Committee that a Division is taking place in the House. When a Peer who is holding a private meeting in one of the Committee Rooms upstairs wishes to be told that a Division is taking place in the House, he should inform the Principal Doorkeeper, who will make the appropriate arrangements.

I am satisfied that if the arrangements which I have just explained are properly operated they are adequate to secure what I am sure we all desire; namely, that every Peer in the building is aware a Division is being called and has a chance to vote if he so desires. When the closed-circuit television sets are installed there will be a third channel of communication, in addition to the voices of the police and the custodians, and the Division Bells which are rung at all strategic points.

LORD BESWICK

My Lords, we are grateful to the noble Earl for making clear what happened on an occasion when the Government defeat apparently might well have been greater than in fact it was. So far as future arrangements are concerned, I am sure we appreciate, with the noble Earl, that difficulties can arise. I am just a little concerned about the length of the chain of communication. It would seem that if there is a weak link in it the arrangement may break down again, and we shall have to watch it very carefully. But I have no doubt that we can leave this matter with the noble Earl himself.

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, before the noble Earl replies, if he is going to, may I ask whether it would not be possible for the policeman to open the door and shout, "Division!", which is a well-established practice in another place, rather than rely on this surreptitious passing of notes? May I say that recognise that fortunately there was not a disaster, thanks to the loyalty of my own Party and the independent and courageous-mindedness of many noble Lords opposite.

EARL ST. ALDWYN

My Lords, both the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, and the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition are rather more able, apparently, to forecast how noble Lords will vote than I am. In all the years I have been Chief Whip I have never pretended that I could ever forecast exactly how noble Lords would vote. I appreciate the procedure I outline is rather complicated, but there have in the past been complaints that Committee proceedings were being interrupted by policemen and custodians putting their head round the door and shouting, "Division!"; and as a result this rather more cumbersome but quieter procedure was adopted. I hope that in future it will work and that once we get the closed-circuit television we shall have solved these problems satisfactorily.

LORD FERRIER

My Lords, can the noble Earl say when the closed-circuit television system is likely to be available?

EARL ST. ALDWYN

My Lords, I cannot say exactly, but I hope it will be in the early part of next Session.