§ 3.33 p.m.
§ LORD GARDINERMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they propose to publish the Memoranda they have received from informed opinion on the Eleventh Report of the Criminal Law Revision Committee before it is debated in Parliament.
§ BARONESS YOUNGNo, my Lords. A number of memoranda on the Report have been published by the bodies responsible for them. It is open to others to publish their memoranda if they wish.
§ LORD GARDINERMy Lords, while thanking the noble Baroness for that Answer, may I ask whether she recollects that the last time this question arose, namely, when there were memoranda from informed opinion sent to the Home Office on the question whether the magistrates' courts organisations should come under central control, the Home Office kindly supplied me with copies of the 1146 memoranda? If that was done on that occasion, may I ask why it has not been done on this occasion, not only for me but for all noble Lords who have put down their names to take part in the debate on Wednesday, so that the debate may be a properly informed one?
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, I of course recall the point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner; but I am sure he will understand that I personally am not in a position to give him that kind of assurance on this particular question. I will certain refer it to my noble friend Lord Colville of Culross.
§ LORD GARDINERMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness whether at least she will be good enough to tell us who the organisations are who have sent in memoranda so that, if that is what we must do, we can all write to them individually for copies?
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, my understanding is that it is not usual practice at this stage to publish a list of organisations that have submitted memoranda on a Report to the Government in this way, but a number of organisations have published their memoranda. Others would probably feel they were not in a form to be published, and yet others might not wish them to be published.
§ LORD HALEMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that we are told in The Times that the Bar Council have published a very critical series of observations about these important matters which are fundamental to the issue of British justice? The Bar Council report, according to The Times, can be bought for £1; and I should be quite happy to pay £1 for it if I am told where and how I can get it. But between now and next Wednesday there is not much time to secure a copy and read it. Surely, on an issue of this kind, a report of the Bar Council is of quite exceptional importance. It would not be a difficult matter to make one or two of the criticisms available in the Library. Would the noble Baroness consider doing that?
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, I will certainly take note of what the noble Lord, Lord Hale, has said; but of course it is always open to any member of the public to buy a copy of publications by the Bar Council.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, would the noble Baroness, and perhaps even the noble Earl the Leader of the House, agree that it would not be impossible for the Library, if requested by my noble friend, to acquire copies of this particular report? I actually had a copy, but unfortunately have already given it away to somebody else.
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, may I say to the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, that I will see whether what he has suggested can be done.
§ LORD GARDINERMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that on the last occasion I was sent copies by the Home Office, on condition that I would not quote from them without the societies' consent, and that I then had to write to 16 organisations, all of whom of course said they had no objection at all? Is this a sensible way of keeping Members of this House properly informed on an important subject?
§ LORD CONESFORDMy Lords, would there be anything to stop the Bar Council from making available in the Printed Paper Office a reasonable number of copies? The Printed Paper Office may perhaps afford facilities for the Bar Council to do this.
§ BARONESS YOUNGMy Lords, I should have thought this would be possible if the Bar Council does make this report available.
§ LORD HALEMy Lords, may I ask whether the noble Baroness is aware that one cannot buy the other reports unless one knows by whom they were issued? We have not available to us the evidence which is before the Revision Committee, and we just do not know how or where to get these reports.
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I was half-invited by the noble Lord, the Leader of the Opposition, to come into what now is rather turning into a debate. I must confess that I do not know all the ins and outs of this particular subject, but I have been impressed by the feelings expressed in your Lordships' House in supplementaries to the Question put by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner, and, if I may, I should like on behalf of the Government to undertake to have a further close look at the situation and see 1148 what can be done. I hope that noble Lords will agree that that is as far as my noble friend and I can be expected to go at this moment.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, when the noble Earl discusses this matter with his right honourable friend the Home Secretary, will he remind him about the promises of open Government that were made at the last Election?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I think that was really a rather pointless supplementary question, if I may say so.