§ 3.0 p.m.
§ EARL OF KINNOULLMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether any recent studies have been, or are being, made for making better use of the river Thames for water-bus services to assist the acute London traffic problem.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, a comprehensive study of a fast passenger service for the London river was completed in 1970. The study was commissioned by the Greater London Council, and the cost borne by the Council and the Government. The conclusion of the study was that a fast river service was feasible, and this led directly to the Government's recent offer of a grant of £75,000 towards a pilot hovercraft service between Greenwich, the City and Westminster.
§ THE EARL OF KINNOULLMy Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that reply, and welcoming the Government support, particularly for the hovercraft service, may I ask of what the service is comprised? May I also ask whether Her Majesty's Government have any idea as to the fares structure?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, the service which will start this spring will consist of two 60-seat HM2 sidewall hovercraft which will run between Greenwich, the City and Westminster, and the cost of a single journey will be 15p. Weekly season tickets will be available.
§ LORD AVEBURYMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that Londoners will greatly welcome anything which takes traffic off the roads? Why is it that these studies have been restricted to the use of the river for passenger services when there are many goods which could equally well be taken up and down on the river, thus removing heavy goods vehicles, which cause so much nuisance, from the centre of London? Will Her Majesty's Government give some attention to this problem, particularly in regard to bulk commodities, such as paper and fuel, which clutter up the roads in central London causing great annoyance in the residential areas?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, the Government would be delighted if this greater use of the river were to come about. The river is heavily used already. The G.L.C. and the Department are only too delighted to give help to anybody who applies.
§ LORD POPPLEWELLMy Lords, can the noble Lord say which service is suggested? Is it to be a service for commuters travelling backwards and forwards in this area, or a service more appropriate for tourists and people who want to travel along the river and see the sights?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I can tell the noble Lord, Lord Popplewell, that we envisage that all the year round this service will run in the morning from 7.30 until 10 o'clock mainly between Greenwich Pier and Tower Pier, but also to a Westminster Pier to be arranged—it is not quite certain which of the two it will be. Then, in the evening, it is envisaged that the traffic will be travelling from West to East. During the summer period these hovercraft will be used as the company concerned sees fit, for tourist traffic, in order to get the maximum traffic. In case the House is interested, there will be a third hovercraft commissioned in the spring of 1974.
§ LORD STRABOLGIMy Lords, would the Government consider extending this service Westwards, so that it could be used by commuters who live, for example, in Chelsea and Fulham?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, it is not really for the Government to do this; it is a matter for the company operating the service. However, the Department regard this pilot service as the possible start of a developing programme to use the Thames as a useful commuter artery; and other councils, such as Bexley, are, with the G.L.C., considering for the future piers at Erith and at Woolwich. The Woolwich pier might well be operating in the next few years.
§ BARONESS STOCKSMy Lords, would it be correct to assume that the usefulness of the development of the river for public transport is not so much a question of up and down the river as criss-cross the river? Supposing you lived at Thames-mead and wished to work in Dagenham, you would have to go a good way East to get to the Woolwich free ferry. Why should there not be the kind of ferry that takes commuters backwards and forwards all day from the centre of Liverpool to the centre of Birkenhead?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, discussions are going on now between another company, the G.L.C. and the Department on this matter.
§ LORD CONESFORDMy Lords, will the Government consider saying "15 pence" rather than "15p"?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords. I defer to the view of my noble Lord.
§ LORD RAGLANMy Lords, if traffic on the river is going to be encouraged there will soon be the same sort of snarl-ups on the river as there are at the moment on the roads; and I can foresee difficulties with me going up and down and the noble Baroness, Lady Stocks, going criss-cross.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I accept the noble Lord's point. Probably the main snag here would be the embarking and disembarking points. I do not think the G.L.C. 1058 are likely to license more traffic than the river can hold.
§ LORD MERRIVALEMy Lords, can my noble friend say to what extent the hydrofoil service between London and Greenwich has been used, and whether, in effect, the hovercraft service is to supersede the hydrofoil service?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, the hydrofoil service went out of commission because it was not making a profit. There is nothing to stop the company concerned from coming back and starting again. The hovercraft service is by a separate company.
§ THE EARL OF KINNOULLMy Lords, can my noble friend say whether consultations are taking place with London Transport, particularly with the commuter services, to provide a co-ordinated service for passengers?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I think the study, which was completed, as I said in my original Answer, in 1970, considered all this, and the G.L.C. are having discussions with more than one company. If any company can put forward a practical proposition the G.L.C. and the Department will look at it favourably.
§ LORD WYNNE-JONESMy Lords, did the noble Lord give an answer to Lord Avebury's question about using the river for dealing with heavy traffic as well as passengers'? Can the noble Lord say whether anything is being done to encourage either hovercraft or hydrofoil for this purpose? I think the noble Lord would agree that at the moment, so far as transport of goods is concerned, the traffic is entirely in the neighbourhood of high water.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I would point out that the original Question deals chiefly with services for commuters. If the noble Lord would like to put down a Question, I will obtain all the necessary details.
VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDSMy Lords, a few answers ago the noble Lord gave the Government's approval to the spreading of cargo off the roads and on to the waterways in the neighbourhood of London. Can he say whether this includes approval for the recent schemes of the British Waterways Board and other 1059 authorities to transfer cargoes from lorries on to waterways on the periphery of London and so bring them to the docks without cluttering up our streets?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I think the noble Viscount has successfully made his point.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I think that is another Question, and I would say again, as I said to the last noble Lord who spoke, that if the noble Viscount will nut down a Question on this point I will deal with it.