§ 2.45 p.m.
Lord INGLEWOODMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will endeavour, so far as is appropriate, to give the battalions to be formed under the reorganisation of the T.A.V.R. the honoured names of the county regiments which recently lost their separate identity.
Earl FERRERSMy Lords, following the creation of the new T.A.V.R. units on April 1, 1971, it is necessary to review the organisational grouping of T.A.V.R. sub-units for command, training and administration. A review will start towards the end of this year. It will not necessarily lead to a re-structuring of battalions, but should this happen, historical and county affiliations will certainly be borne in mind when deciding on any new titles which may be necessary.
Lord INGLEWOODMy Lords, may I thank my noble friend for that reply, which leaves us not without hope? While appreciating that some counties are too small to become a recruiting area for a whole battalion, may I ask whether in good recruiting areas he will try to avoid 1050 a battalion's recruiting on both sides of a county boundary and instead have an area entirely within one county? And will he give the battalion the name of its former county regiment, so involving the county again with the Army and providing a magnet for recruiting?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I can assure my noble friend that Her Majesty's Government are particularly conscious of the effect and the necessity of territorial recognition with regard to the T.A.V.R. units. In fact, in almost all cases where it is not possible to do this at battalion level it is done at sub-unit or company level.
§ LORD SLATERMy Lords, can the noble Earl give a reason why there cannot be restoration of the title attached to the county regiments? Does it not mean that we are overlooking the work done and the bravery shown by people of my generation and of others during the last two wars—and particularly the First World War? When we requested permission for miners to come back out of the Armed Forces and into the pits to produce the coal required at that particular time, we were turned down by the Ministry of Labour until such time as the register of unemployed miners was cleared. I remember—
§ THE MINISTER OE STATE, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH, AND SOCIAL SECURITY (LORD ABERDARE)My Lords, I think it would be more in order if the noble Lord were to put his interesting speech in the form of a question.
§ LORD SLATERMy Lords, I am sorry to trespass on the time of the House. Is the noble Earl aware that committees were set up at that time to traverse the country to try to carry out the edict of the Ministry of Labour, particularly to try to get these people off the unemployment register?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I think I should need notice of the historical point to which the noble Lord, Lord Slater, makes reference. The point with which he is concerned is, I believe, similar to the one with which my noble friend was concerned: that people 1051 should be able to identify themselves and the regiment they are in with the area from which they come. As an example of the type of complication which this causes, I would draw the noble Lord's attention to the 5th Light Infantry Battalion which recruits from Shropshire, Herefordshire, Cornwall, Yorkshire and Durham. Obviously, it would be difficult to call the battalion the "5th Light Infantry Shropshire, Herefordshire, Cornwall, Yorkshire and Durham Battalion." Instead, it is described as the 5th Light Infantry Battalion, and those territorial connotations come out in the company names.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, may I ask whether the Minister is aware that there is considerable controversy among the members of the Auxiliary Forces about this matter? Also, is he aware that the building up of the Auxiliary Forces is equivalent in importance to obtaining recruits for the Regular Forces and that it is desirable to have territorial connotations in order to attract as many recruits as possible?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, of course there is bound to be controversy, particularly when there has been the expansion in the Territorial Army that there has been over the last 18 months or so. It is for this reason that my noble friend has requested that a review be undertaken at the end of the year, in which all these points will be taken into account. I would tell the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, that this is being done by Headquarters United Kingdom Land Forces.
LORD INGLEWOODMy Lords, may I ask whether my noble friend would not agree that the example he quoted, where five counties were involved, is exactly the form of organisation that I hope the restructuring of the T.A.V.R. will avoid? I did not mention the name of any county in my original supplementary question. Would he not now agree that the last county of the five he mentioned is quite capable of raising a whole battalion, or more than one battalion, on its own?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I did not think that the reference to Durham would escape the notice of my noble friend. It is true that it is a very good 1052 recruiting area and is represented both in the Northumbrian Volunteers and in the Light Infantry to which I have referred. But the very point to which my noble friend referred is the kind of subject which will be considered in the review.
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether he is aware that the historic names of Highland regiments in Scotland do have an appreciable effect on recruiting?
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, may I ask the Minister a further question? May we have an assurance that before a decision is reached, presumably by the Ministry of Defence and the military chiefs associated with that Department, members of the T.A.V.R. will be fully consulted, so that at any rate their opinions may be available to the public?
EARL FERRERSYes, my Lords, I can give the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, the assurance that the T.A.V.R. will be consulted at all levels—at company and battalion level, as well as there being consultations with other Departments of the Army and the Ministry of Defence.