§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what is their attitude towards the admission of Western and Eastern Germany to the United Nations and towards the recognition of Eastern Germany as a sovereign State.
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE)My Lords, in the Quadripartite Declaration of November 9, 1972, we said we will support the applications for membership in the United Nations by the Federal Republic of Germany and the German Democratic Republic. Subject to the rights and responsibilities of the Four Powers in respect of Berlin and Germany as a whole, Her Majesty's Government recognise that the German Democratic Republic has the full authority of a sovereign State over its internal and external affairs. This does not in any way indicate a change in our position on the special situation in Germany as set out in the NATO communiqué of December 8, 1972.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that reply. While recognising the desire for a union of Germany and hoping that it may come by some synthesis, may I ask whether it is not a fact that, realistically, one now has to accept two separate States? In that situation, is it not very desirable that the British Government should give full support to both Western Germany and Eastern Germany becoming parts of the United Nations, with full recognition of 960 their sovereignty? As I understand that Her Majesty's Government have agreed to diplomatic relations with Eastern Germany, may I also ask this question: does that also mean recognition of her full sovereignty?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I thought that in my original reply I had answered the majority of the questions which the noble Lord put to me. Therefore, if I may, I would address myself only to his question on the fact that there is a special situation in Germany, because the German people live in two States. That is why we had the communiqué of December 8, in which we expressed continuing support for the policy of the Federal Republic of Germany to work towards a state of peace in Europe, in which the German people regain their unity through self-determination.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, the noble Baroness has not answered my question. If Her Majesty's Government are ready to enter into diplomatic relations with Eastern Germany, does that also involve a recognition of the sovereignty of Eastern Germany?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, perhaps I should just repeat what I said in my first reply, that:
Her Majesty's Government recognise that the German Democratic Republic has the full authority of a sovereign State over its internal and external affairs",although I also said that that did not in any way indicate a change in our position on the special situation set out in the NATO communiqué.
§ LORD CONESFORDMy Lords, does the Minister recall that under Article 1, paragraph 2, of the Charter, it is the purpose of the United Nations
to develop friendly relations among nations based upon the principles of equal rights and self-determination of peoples"?Does my noble friend think that the people of East Germany at present enjoy self-determination?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I do not think that they enjoy it in the terms suggested by my noble friend. But the fact is that the General Relations Treaty, which was signed by the Federal Republic of 961 Germany and the German Democratic Republic on December 21 last year, stated that both countries will be guided by the aims and principles set out in the United Nations Charter and, in particular, by the principle of the sovereign equality of all countries.
§ LORD KENNETMy Lords, I think that the noble Baroness's words about "the full authority of a sovereign State" are the same thing as what the ordinary man would call "recognition". Am I not right in thinking that the last time any of us looked around Her Majesty's Government did not recognise East Germany, and if Her Majesty's Government now recognise it can the House be told when they did so? Or is this an announcement?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I do not know where the noble Lord has been if he has not been looking around for so long, because the fact remains that on December 22 my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs sent a telegram to the Foreign Minister of the German Democratic Republic proposing talks, and according to our practice that constituted recognition.
§ BARONESS GAITSKELLMy Lords, is it not true that this question has very little to do with our attitude, and is there not a legal difficulty in the United Nations itself? When I have heard this question argued there, that is what has emerged.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I think that the noble Baroness is perfectly correct, and I felt the best that I could do was to quote what was agreed in the General Relations Treaty.
§ LORD SLATERMy Lords, does the noble Baroness not agree that in spite of the diplomatic talks and the relations that have now been arrived at between this country and Western Germany, through our entering the European Economic Community, and what has happened between Western Germany and Eastern Germany, what is of paramount importance to the whole of the people of Germany, whether they live in the East or the West, is the removal of that 962 monstrosity, the Berlin Wall, which many of us have been privileged to see?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, the noble Lord is perfectly right. What we arc working for, which was stated in the NATO communiqué, is a freely agreed contractual peace settlement for Germany; and until such a settlement is achieved the rights and responsibilities of the Four Powers relating to Berlin and Germany as a whole will continue.
LORD JANNERMy Lords, would the noble Baroness, while considering the question of East Germany and of its relationship to other nations in the world, inquire what East Germany is prepared to do in order to grant reparation to the victims of Nazi persecution, in the same way as Western Germany did?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEWith due respect, my Lords, I think that is another question.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I am certain the House welcomes the statement which has been made this afternoon by the noble Baroness. Can she say when we can expect a British Ambassador to be appointed to the G.D.R., and also a representative in London?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, probably in late summer.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, I am sorry to press this point, but the noble Baroness, with her usual ability, has avoided an answer to the question which I put.
§ LORD BROCKWAYThe question which I put was this: whether, after the ratification of the General Relations Treaty by the Bonn Government, Her Majesty's Government will not only establish diplomatic relations with Eastern Germany but will give it formal recognition by an exchange of Ambassadors. That is the issue.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, in answer to the previous question I said that we hope to exchange Ambassadors in the late summer.
§ LORD KENNETMy Lords, the noble Baroness mentioned a telegram of, I think, December 22 which constituted recognition, and said I ought to have been looking around as I did not know about it. Was this telegram public knowledge? Has any announcement that we now recognise East Germany been made before this afternoon?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEYes, indeed, my Lords, even later than that particular date, be-because talks are taking place now. An announcement was made by my right honourable friend in another place on the 29th of last month that an invitation had gone to G.D.R. officials to begin talks in London about the establishment of diplomatic relations, and these talks have been going on since January 23. I understand that they are going quite well.
§ LORD KENNETMy Lords, would the noble Baroness not accept that many people do not quite understand that an invitation to discuss the establishment of diplomatic relations in itself constitutes recognition? Would not many people expect us, when recognising East Germany, to say, "We recognise East Germany", and not to wrap it up in the form of an invitation to talk about something else which comes afterwards? I imply no criticism of the act of recognition of East Germany, which I welcome, like my noble friend.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I am sure these exchanges across the Floor of the House will have made it quite clear.
LORD JANNERMy Lords, will the noble Baroness forgive me if I put the question to her again in relation to the attitude of East Germany in respect of the victims of Nazi persecution? Many of her own population having been involved, and East Germany not having given anything towards reparations to those who suffered losses, surely she should adopt the policy of West Germany if she wants to become part and parcel of either the United Nations or of any other international body. With the greatest respect, I would ask the noble Baroness to believe that that is relevant to the issue.
§ LORD NUGENT OF GUILDFORDMy Lords, before my noble friend answers that question, may I, on a point of order, ask my noble friends on the Front Bench whether they do not think it is time to move on to the next Question?
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY (LORD ABERDARE)My Lords, I am afraid that my noble friend the Leader of the House is not here at the moment, but I should have thought that this was a question of immense importance and interest. I do not think we have been too long on it, but perhaps one more reply from my noble friend will satisfy the House.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Janner, has raised a very large and important question, and I would suggest to him that it is outside the scope of the narrow Question upon the Order Paper.