HL Deb 05 February 1973 vol 338 cc829-33
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether reconsideration can now be given to the need to proceed with the third London Airport (Foulness) project, having regard to new factors and developments since the decision to proceed, including, first, rapid introduction of wide multi-seater types of aircraft such as Jumbo and Tri-Star; secondly, increased engine silence efficiency; thirdly, improved computer air traffic control allowing higher density traffic acceptance at existing airports; fourthly, likely short-fall of air traffic forecasts of the Roskill Committee.

THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD DRUMALBYN)

My Lords, we are satisfied of the need for additional airport capacity to serve the London area at the end of this decade, having taken account of all the points mentioned by my noble friend. Maplin will meet this need and also will bring some prospect of relief from increased noise disturbance to hundreds of thousands of people living near the existing airports.

LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE

My Lords, do I understand from the Government that they reject any idea of a reappraisal, though admitting that these new factors exist in the situation?

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, the Government have reappraised this. They reappraised it at the time when the position of the runways at Maplin was being considered last year.

LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE

My Lords, in view of this refusal to have any reappraisal, may I ask whether the Government are aware that, as this legislation will be a hybrid Bill, they may have great difficulty in getting it through both Houses of Parliament? Really one is forced to ask, when does Government decision stop and political obstinacy start?

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for the warning he has given us about a possible difficulty in getting the Bill through. I am bound to tell him that it was very much on the advice of this House that we went to Maplin rather than to another airport.

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, would the noble Lord not recognise that even in the last few weeks new information has come in which could warrant some further inquiry, either by the Government or by a Select Committee? Further, would he correct his statement that it was on the advice of this House that we went to Maplin?

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, I well remember the debate on the Roskill Report in this House. The great majority of the speakers seemed to support the preference for Maplin rather than Cublington or any other airport. As to the other point, I must assure the noble Lord that as this project involves very great expenditure, the Government are keeping it under absolutely continuous review.

BARONESS BACON

My Lords, is the Minister aware that most people at that time were thinking in terms of a third London airport, but there is now a body of opinion which is thinking more in terms of a third British airport, not necessarily in or near London? Would he give consideration to the fact that a big airport is badly needed in the North Midlands and the North-East of England?

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, the Civil Aviation Authority is now commissioning a study on the desirable future structure of the airport system in the North-West, Yorkshire and Humberside, West Midlands and East Midlands and, if necessary, the Bristol and South Wales area also.

LORD WYNNE-JONES

My Lords, does not the noble Lord remember that there was one very well-informed Member of your Lordships' House who called attention at the time to the inadvisability of going ahead with this scheme? Do the Government pay no attention to the dangers to other geese, such as the Brent geese?

THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE

My Lords, would the noble Lord accept that there are many on both sides of Parliament, and particularly on this side, who hope that the Government will keep to their course, who supported them and who pressed for this decision, and that we mean to support them in pursuing it?

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, I am much obliged to both noble Lords. If noble Lords will look up the debate, I am sure they will find that in the debate on the Roskill Report there was a minority—undoubtedly of powerful voices—against having a third London Airport at all, but the majority were in favour of it.

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, might I ask the noble Lord whether he would again consider the possibility of an inquiry, and not draw conclusions from particular remarks that are made? It may correct an impression that he may have formed that I am personally against Maplin. Is he aware that there is anxiety that the right decision should be taken, and that this may warrant a further inquiry which will confirm or otherwise the Government's decision?

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, I shall convey to my honourable friend the Minister for Aerospace and Shipping, and to the Secretary of State for the Environment, what the noble Lord, the Leader of the Opposition, has said. However, I am bound to say to the House that when there is a long-term project of this sort there is bound to be opposition, stimulated from various quarters, from those who are adversely affected by the plans. It may well be that there is something in what they have to say. We shall continue to watch this matter, and I shall convey to my right honourable friend what has been said.

LORD SLATER

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the supplementary question that was asked by my noble friend Lady Bacon mentioned the North-East? Is he not aware that at one time the North-East was earmarked for an international airport? Does he not think that it ought to come within the ambit of the list that he has given to noble Lords in this Chamber this afternoon? He spoke of the consideration that is to be given to various parts of the country.

LORD DRUMALBYN

Yes, My Lords. International airports generally have to be related to the more densely populated areas, and I said that the study that is being commissioned will cover the North-West, Yorkshire and Humberside, where the population density is higher than it is in the North-East.

VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDS

My Lords, will the noble Lord confirm one point, which may make some difference to the thinking of a number of us? Is it not true that even if we do not use Maplin for an airport the bird sanctuary, the valuable cocklebeds and the sailing, which I used to enjoy so much in earlier years, will still be ruined, because of the fact that the Port of London must shift downstream and spread out into deep water in that area?

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, the movement of the Port of London is undoubtedly an important consideration, and no doubt the noble Viscount is right in the conclusion he draws.

LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE

My Lords, may I ask the Minister to withdraw one sentence which he used in reply to a supplementary question by the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition? He said that there is bound to be opposition from those who have interests or from those who are interested. Will he accept that there are many, such as myself, who are opposed to this scheme but who have no interest? We accept the fact that a third airport is necessary, but we have no interest, material or otherwise.

Loma DRUMALBN

Yes, my Lords. Of course I most willingly accept what my noble friend has said, and I apologise to him if he took any implication out of what I said.

LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE

I did, my Lords.

THE EARL OF BUCKINGHAMSHIRE

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that local people have repeatedly remarked that shifting sands would make it impossible to build an airport at Maplin—an opinion backed by Dutch engineers?

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, I thought those words were derived from the Bible. I would only say to the noble Earl that a sea wall is being built around the area and there is no reason to suppose from examination of what is happening now, that the sands are shifting.

LORD LEATHERLAND

My Lords, while not wishing to talk about shifting sands, on which the Government's policy is built, may I ask the noble Lord whether it is not a fact that much of the new agitation derives from the fact that there has not been sufficient publicity and consultation with regard to the routes to be followed by roads and railways? If the Government could be more forthcoming on those two points, much of the present agitation against the fundamentals of the scheme would disappear.

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, I take note of what the noble Lord has said, and I shall convey it to my right honourable friend.

THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE

My Lords, will my noble friend bear in mind that in addition to easing the noise problem of people living near Heathrow and Gatwick this project also offers an unparalleled opportunity to bring about a redevelopment to the East side of London, which has been needed for very many generations?

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, the Government are aware of those considerations and I am very glad that my noble friend has drawn attention to them.

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