HL Deb 01 February 1973 vol 338 cc702-4

3.16 p.m.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the experiment in operation in the Elms Ward at the Purdown Mental Hospital, Bristol, where a number of male patients are engaged in gainful occupation outside the hospital, is being encouraged by the Health Ministry and whether similar experiments will be adopted in other mental hospitals.

LORD ABERDARE

Yes, my Lords. It is our policy to encourage hospital authorities to develop well-planned schemes which will provide suitable training and occupation for patients in mental hospitals or assist their rehabilitation. A number of schemes involving local industry are already in existence, and we very much hope the practice will spread.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, after that encouraging reply, may I ask the Minister this question? Is he aware that the consultant psychiatrist at this particular hospital has stated that there are more than 100 patients who would qualify for gainful occupation outside the unit of the hospital, but the obstacle in the way is the lack of education on the part of the public, who regard persons who are mentally disturbed as unsuitable to mix with the community outside? Would the Government take note of that and use whatever publicity is available to them in order to encourage people outside these hospitals to assist the persons concerned? May I ask further whether it is possible for somebody from his Department—I would not dare to ask the Minister himself—to visit this unit in order to witness the experiment, which is a very valuable one indeed?

LORD ABERDARE

My Lords, I am extremely glad to know that the noble Lord is taking such an interest in health matters, and I am grateful to him for having drawn attention to this particular development at this hospital. It is not quite such an experiment, I venture to suggest, as he says; it is taking place in many of our mental hospitals and is one which we fully support. I recognise, as he says, that there is often a certain public anxiety, particularly when it comes to putting a training centre or a hostel in an ordinary community; but where they have been established the local community usually take them to heart very helpfully. As for visiting hospitals, I will certainly take note of what the noble Lord said. I hope that he will continue to visit many more hospitals.

LORD GRENFELL

My Lords, would my noble friend not agree that to the best of our knowledge most hospitals for the mentally handicapped do all they can to find jobs outside the hospital for patients? In the group of which I am chairman, where most patients are of low grade, having I.Q.s of 50 or below, there are employed outside the hospital nine girls with wages ranging from £10 to £13 a week, and six men with wages ranging from £15 to £23. We are always looking for new jobs. According to the amount of wages a scale of charges is made, but the hospital cannot take more than £6.

LORD ABERDARE

My Lords, I am well aware that the noble Lord is chairman of a very excellent group of hospitals, and it reinforces the point that I was making to the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, that this excellent development is going on throughout the country.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, in order to remove any possibility of misunderstanding, may I ask the Minister whether he is aware that my visit to this particular institution was unofficial and completely voluntary?

LORD ABERDARE

My Lords, I am very glad to know that the noble Lord did not receive a coffee pot.

LADY RUTHVEN OF FREELAND

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that a great many patients from that particular group of hospitals have been working outside the hospital for a very long time? The one referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, is only one of the group of Stoke Park Hospitals, which I know very well. It may be that the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, is referring to 100 patients from the Stoke Park Hospital group, who are earning about £30,000 a year. I should just like to bring that to the attention of the Minister.

LORD ABERDARE

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend.

BARONESS BROOKE OF YSTRADFELLTE

My Lords, can the Minister tell us how many hospitals are partaking in similar schemes of this kind?

LORD ABERDARE

My Lords, I cannot tell my noble friend exactly how many hospitals are involved. I can tell her that in 1970 2.8 per cent. of the patients in hospitals for the mentally handicapped, and 2 per cent. of those in hospitals for the mentally ill, were working outside the hospitals in open employment.

LORD PARGITER

My Lords, can the noble Lord say to what extent there is consultation between his Department and the Department of Employment? So much depends upon the money that they are prepared to spend on rehabilitation units for people of this kind.

LORD ABERDARE

My Lords, there is very close consultation with the Department of Employment.

LORD DAVIES OF LEEK

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that some of us appreciate very much the attitude of the trade union movement towards a better understanding of patients who require jobs for their rehabilitation? This House and the other place appreciate the attitude which the trade union movement has shown towards a better understanding of these patients, thus eradicating the fear about them which we used to have in days gone by.

LORD ABERDARE

Yes, my Lords. I am glad to acknowledge that.