HL Deb 18 December 1973 vol 348 cc186-9

2.48 p.m.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government to state what protest was made to the Soviet Union by the Foreign Secretary during his visit to Russia on the provision of weapons to Arab countries.

BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE

My Lords, none.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords may I ask the noble Baroness this: when her right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary set the example some weeks ago of refusing to supply the State of Israel with some equipment which they had ordered, and presumably had paid for, would it not have been reasonable to have discussed the matter with the Soviet Union and asked them to follow his example? Would that not have been a rational thing to do?

BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE

My Lords, naturally my right honourable friend's discussions were confidential. I could tell the noble Lord that the whole Middle East situation, including arms, was on the agenda.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that her answer fills me with apprehension? When she speaks about confidentiality I am really amazed. It is very important we should know what her right honourable friend said to his opposite number in the Soviet Union. It would be very interesting to Members of your Lordships' House, and particularly interesting to the State of Israel.

BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE

My Lords, the question on the Order Paper in the noble Lord's name was whether a protest was made to the Soviet Union, and I said that no protest was made.

THE EARL OF ONSLOW

My Lords, was a protest made to the United States' Secretary of State over the supply of arms to Israel?

BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE

My Lords, I think the whole House knows perfectly well that the Soviet Union is the major supplier of arms to the Arab States, and the United States is the major supplier to Israel.

LORD JANNER

My Lords, might I follow the supplementary question asked by my noble friend? Is the noble Baroness aware that practically all that was lost by the Arab States when they were fighting Israel, which they attacked, has been replaced; and that in so far as we are concerned, although we were under a contract to supply spare parts for the Centurion tanks to Israel, we have not done so; and that they cannot obtain certain of those spare parts from any other country except this, thus leaving them with practically useless Centurions.

BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE

My Lords, as I think we discussed in an earlier debate, Israel is not entirely dependent upon Centurion tanks, whereas Jordan is, and the embargo is even-handed.

LORD JANNER

My Lords, surely the noble Baroness is not getting away with that. We have supplied Centurion tanks, and in the circumstances we are under an obligation to supply the spare parts. Some of those spare parts are not available anywhere else in the world.

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS

Question !

LORD JANNER

My Lords, can the noble Baroness tell us where Israel will get them from, if not from us, and why were they not supplied?

BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE

My Lords, I can well remember answering the noble Lord, Lord Janner, on this particular point some weeks ago, when I tried to make it quite clear that we had decided to have an even-handed embargo on arms, and that there is a contract in every export licence which can be repudiated at any time.

LORD WIGG

My Lords, would the noble Baroness not agree that if the principle of equality is to apply, as we have sold arms to Israel should we not supply a comparable amount on the same terms to the Arab States?

BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE

My Lords, the type of arms is different in each of these cases, but I am informed that in actual fire power they are almost the same.

LORD TREVELYAN

My Lords, with reference to the supplementary question put by the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, would not the noble Baroness agree that if diplomatic conversations between Foreign Ministers were not to remain confidential diplomacy would be impossible?

BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE

Yes, my Lords.

LORD FOOT

My Lords, would the noble Baroness agree that, whatever may be the merits or otherwise of this matter, no conceivable purpose would have been served by protesting to the Soviet Government about it?

BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE

Exactly, my Lords, and I answered the Question to the effect that no protest was made.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, following the supplementary question put by the noble Lord, Lord Trevelyan, is the noble Baroness aware that confidentiality between diplomats is often the cause of war? Is the noble Baroness aware that if only we knew what the diplomats were talking about we might be able to prevent war?