§ 4.0 p.m.
EARL ST. ALDWYNMy Lords, earlier this afternoon, I promised to make a Statement about the arrangement of business next week. It has been agreed through the usual channels that all Northern Ireland business should be shifted 1294 to Wednesday, December 19 in place of the two Short Debates. I am glad to say that the noble Lords who were to move Motions have kindly agreed to postpone them until after the Recess. I should add that this will require an Order of your Lordships' House, as the House has agreed that two Short Debates should be held each month and they will not now be held during the month of December. In addition, the Third Reading of the Safety of Sports Grounds Bill will also be postponed until Wednesday, December 19. This will allow us to hold a full debate on the economic and industrial situation on Tuesday, December 18.
I hope, my Lords, that these arrangements will commend themselves.
§ LORD WIGGMy Lords, may I revert to the Statement made earlier by the Leader of the House? Is he not aware that the Statement he has made today is one of the gravest that has been made to Parliament for very many years? Is he not aware that it underlines the complete collapse of the Government's economic policy, and that it only goes as far as to deal with remedies following on the collapse of that policy? Do the Government not agree that, somehow or other, they have to make a fresh start? In order to introduce a new atmosphere into industry, would not a fresh start be for the Government to announce that they are going to repeal in toto the Industrial Relations Act, and then to initiate talks to see what parts of it can be saved?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, reference to the Industrial Relations Act was made when I repeated the Home Secretary's Statement on the continuation of the State of Emergency yesterday. My reply now is the same as my reply then. This is a much wider and graver situation due to a whole number of causes, and to try to simplify things in these black and white terms does a disservice to the public as a whole.
§ LORD BALOGHMy Lords, does not the noble Lord think that, as the situation is very grave, the sort of negative measures which he proposes are completely insufficient, because without a package deal which would embrace what the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, said just now, it is quite impossible to deal with this situation? Does the noble Lord the 1295 Leader of the House remember Lord Gowrie's speech, which was complacent to a degree, only six weeks ago?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, the Government have no intention of denying the gravity of the situation. I said that yesterday, and I repeat it now. The Prime Minister's Statement shows that the Government have analysed with the greatest possible care the situation in which we find ourselves, and have brought forward what we believe to be the correct measures to deal with the situation. As the Statement says, the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be making a further Statement on Monday, and since our debate is to be on Tuesday we shall be able to take that into account when we have the general debate. My Lords, the Statement to-day represents our judgment of the situation. While other noble Lords will no doubt have their judgment, the Government believe that the measures described in the Statement are the correct way to deal with the situation with which we are faced.
§ VISCOUNT WATKINSONMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that industry will want to co-operate with the Government and will see this as a challenge to their ingenuity and ability? We have seen worse before and have got through. However, might I ask my noble friend this question. Clearly, the initial situation will be confused until industry sees exactly how cuts can be applied, and so on. Would he perhaps give an assurance that the Department of Trade and Industry, the Department of Employment and the other Ministries concerned, will do all they possibly can to brief industry now on the precise action which they want it to take? If such briefing takes place, I am sure that industry will be 100 per cent. willing to co-operate.
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, the noble Lord speaks with great experience as an industrialist as well as a former member of the Government, and I am encouraged to hear what he has to say. The Government Departments concerned will want to do exactly as he has asked and to keep in the closest possible touch. The measures are to operate in two stages. There is an interim stage up till the end of the year, with five days' work until the end of the year at the choice 1296 of the employer. This will give more flexibility in the interim stage before the 3-day working comes in from January 1.
§ LORD BERNSTEINMy Lords, will th Leader of the House promise that on Tuesday he will tell us in clear terms how the Government propose to deal with this matter? We have heard a tale of woe which will give no satisfaction. We should like to know what the Government proposals are for dealing with the present situation.
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, the Statement was already a full one, and the Prime Minister apologised for its length. I should do the same. What it did was to explain the causes of the situation, to give the facts for which the public have been asking. I believe it was quite right to do that, and to explain what measures were being taken —voluntary measures and measures backed by the force of law—to restrict the consumption of electricity. That is the narrow point contained in the Statement, and it is of very great public importance. It is essential that it is widely understood and that the reasons behind it are understood. In a wider debate we can cover some of the points which were raised in questions just now following the Statement.
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that many people will agree with the views of my noble friends, that the Government are really at the moment dealing with the symptoms and not with the disease? Is he also aware that in that context many of us will welcome his statement, or that of the Prime Minister, that the proposal of Dr. Kissinger for an Energy Action Group will be received sympathetically by Her Majesty's Government? Will the noble Lord the Leader of the House assure the House that at the Conference in Copenhagen the Prime Minister will press the present proposal from Dr. Kissinger with greater enthusiasm than was given to his earlier proposal for an Atlantic Charter to which Her Majesty's Government showed a notably luke-warm reaction? Can he further assure the House that at the Conference in Copenhagen the Prime Minister will, with his European colleagues, not allow the Dutch Government in this oil situation to stand on its own, 1297 but that he will impress on his European colleagues the necessity to press for a common policy towards the Arabs on the oil production question?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, the Prime Minister's words warmly welcomed Dr. Kissinger's proposal. That answers the first part of the question. The Heads of State and the Heads of Government will be meeting as members of the enlarged Community. They are aware of their status as members of the European Community, as well as the responsibility they have for the welfare of their own nations, and they will come to a judgment as to how these two matters should be held in balance.
§ LORD PARGITERMy Lords, would the noble Lord consider recommending to his right honourable friend that the rigidity of Phase 3 might be eased a little with regard to the mines, so that within the total amount of money available something might be done about the base rate of miners instead of so much importance being attached to social hours and things of that sort?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, many people are asking themselves whether the limits of Phase 3 might prove too generous in the months ahead.
§ LORD HANKEYMy Lords, will the Government consider bringing the Energy Action Group, which is an excellent idea, under the aegis of O.E.C.D., where there are premises available and a highly skilled, trained staff accustomed to dealing with energy prolems, especially as it is an organisation of which the United States, Canada, Japan as well as all the European countries are members?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, the proposal was made only last night, but I will draw that suggestion to the attention of those of my right honourable friends who are concerned.