Lords Sitting of 13 December 1973

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock (Prayers having been read earlier at the Judicial Sitting by the Lord Bishop of Ely):
The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

SPECIAL SCHOOLS: ANCILLARY MEDICAL STAFFS
BARONESS MASHAM OF ILTON: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether from April 1, 1974, they will make local education authorities responsible for the employment (including part-time employment) in special schools of persons trained in professions ancillary to medicine (e.g., physiotherapists and speech therapists).
THE MINISTER OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY (LORD ABERDARE): No, my Lords. From April 1, 1974, such persons will be employed by Area Health Authorities, who will be required to ensure that such staff continue to be available to special schools.
BARONESS MASHAM OF ILTON: My Lords, while thanking the Minister for that Answer, can he give some assurance that the health authorities will take the special schools as priority cases because does he not think that perhaps hospitals will be more of a priority? May I also ask whether the noble Lord does not think that the education committees might not understand staff who have their own children and want to work part-time in special schools?
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, certainly we recognise the importance of mantaining the existing services in special schools and through the collaboration arrangements we shall ensure that the health authorities are sensitive to the
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needs of schools and work closely with the local health committees.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, is the Minister quite sure that this will be the case, in view of the grave shortage of physiotherapists and speech therapists and, I think, of all those people who occupy posts which are ancillary to medicine?
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, the Question is mainly directed to what happens on the transfer, when we hope that services will continue much as they are at present. I recognise that there are shortages in all these categories and, as the noble Baroness will be aware, the Quirk Report, relating to speech therapists, has recently been published. We have also a working party which has just reported on the development of services of that sort.
LORD WYNNE-JONES: My Lords, does the noble Lord's answer mean that the Government are prepared to give special consideration to departments of speech therapy in universities?—because this is rather an important matter for the future training of such people.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, my right honourable friend is hoping to make a statement on the Government's attitude to the Quirk Report before the end of this month.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: My Lords, does the noble Lord not think it is slightly anomalous that, say, in a special school you may have 25 members of staff of all kinds, from teachers to caretakers, being employed by the local authority, with, at the same time, perhaps three members of the staff—say, two nurses and a physiotherapist—being employed by the Area Health Authority although they are in fact working full-time in that school?
LORD ABERDARE: No, my Lords, this is one of the steps which is being taken towards the evolution of a comprehensive child health service. It applies to doctors and nurses and, equally, to physiotherapists and speech therapists.
LORD ELTON: My Lords, can the noble Lord tell us how many staffs in the special schools are in the categories which will be transferred from one employer to another? Can he also say what

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specific advantages will accrue to them, to the administrators who run the schemes and to the children who, categorically, are by far the most important people under consideration?
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, I cannot give my noble friend the figures he asks for without notice, but I entirely accept what he said at the end—that the children are the most important people. We believe that establishing a comprehensive child health service will be in the best interests of the children. As my noble friend may know, Professor Court is to chair a committee to advise on the longer-term development of child health services for children of all ages, including handicapped children.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: My Lords, I am sorry to ask the noble Lord another question, but in the case of a local education authority thinking that an excellent nurse or physio-therapist should be employed in a special school and the Area Health Authority deciding they could not provide that, would the noble Lord say who could give the final decision?
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, these are matters for the Joint Consultative Committee, provided for in the National Health Service Act.

CONSULTATIVE COMMITTEES' REPORTS
3.6 p.m.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether it is Government policy, when reports are made by official Consultative Committees and Councils, and Users' Committees, within their terms of reference and concerning the national consumer interest as well as a Departmental one, to refer the report to the Ministers responsible for consumer affairs, in addition to the Departmental Ministers deemed to be affected.
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD DRUMALBYN): My Lords, when a Minister receives a report from
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an Advisory or Consultative Committee, either because it is submitted to him direct in accordance with Statute, or because it has been forwarded to him by the body to whom the Committee reports, he is free to consult any of his colleagues whom he considers appropriate.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, might I ask the noble Lord, as the Minister chiefly responsible in this House, I think, for consumer affairs, whether he does not consider it would have been useful if he had read the report of the Airline Users' Committee before answering the Question in this House on December 5?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I am afraid I do not remember whether I had read the report or not, at that time. I am not aware of how that particular report was dealt with—whether it was forwarded by the Chairman of the Airline Users' Committee to the Board to which it reports, or whether it was passed on direct by the Chairman of that Board, who happens to be also Chairman of the Civil Aviation Authority, to the Minister. I am afraid I cannot answer that question without notice.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, I am sure the noble Lord should be able to. Is he aware that I sent it myself to the Minister for Trade and Consumer Affairs on November 21? Is the Minister also aware that it was quite obvious on December 5 that he had not read the report of this Users' Committee, as his answers were in complete contradiction to what had been found by that Committee?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, the noble Baroness must forgive me if my memory is at fault. What I am asking her is to allow me to check on the situation to see exactly what did happen.
LORD SEGAL: My Lords, could the noble Lord the Leader of the House, or the acting Leader, inform the House whether, in view of the existing transport difficulties, the first Question on the Order Paper might not be demoted to the fourth Question?
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, I am sorry; but I am afraid it is quite outside my power to alter the Rules of the House.

CHRISTMAS RECESS: DATE OF RESUMPTION
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, with the leave of the House, my noble friend the Leader of the House will be making a Statement on energy supplies at a convenient moment after 3.30.
Last week I announced that the House would return from the Christmas Recess on Tuesday, January 22. In view of the present situation, it has been decided that the House should return on Tuesday, January 15. I am sure that noble Lords will appreciate that it may also be necessary to ask the House to return at an even earlier date.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend the Lord Privy Seal I beg to move the Motion on the Order Paper.
Moved, That Standing Order No. 44 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken in one day) be suspended until the House adjourns for the Recess at Christmas, and that Standing Order No. 38 (Arrangement of the Order Paper) be dispensed with on Thursday the 20th of December for the purpose of giving precedence to the two Motions standing in the name of the Baroness Burton of Coventry.—(Earl St. Aldwyn.)
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, the House will be grateful to the noble Earl. I understand there is a possibility, in the light of severe congestion of business next week, of some changes. I wonder whether the noble Earl would undertake, if these changes are to be made, to consider making a Statement later this afternoon so that we may have early knowledge of rearrangements, since there is now some delay in the post.
EARL ST. ALDWYN: Certainly, my Lords. Either I myself or the Leader of the House has every intention of making a Statement after my noble friend has made his Statement.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

LAND REGISTRY BILL [H.L.]
3.11 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD HAILSHAM OF SAINT MARYLEBONE): My Lords, I beg to move that the Report be now received.
Moved, That the Report be now received.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Clause 4 [Further provisions as to the functions of the registering authority]:
LORD GARDINER LORD GARDINER moved Amendment No. 1:
Page 5, line 22, leave out subsections (3), (4) and (5) and insert—
("() Upon the payment of such fees as may be determined by the registering authority, those parts of the registers which disclose the name and address of the owner, and the price paid for the property and such other parts of the registers as the Lord Chancellor may direct, shall be open to public inspection.")
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name on the Marshalled List. What I am particularly concerned with in this Amendment is to seek to end the secrecy surrounding the name and address of the owner of the land. May I say at once that if the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor would indicate that on Third Reading of the Bill, he would be prepared to accept the Amendment provided that the words, "price paid for the property" were deleted, I should consider accepting that as being as far as we can get in this House.
It still seems to me extraordinary that while anybody searching the rate book can find out who is the occupier of land, even our largest planning authorities have no means of finding out who is the owner of land. Centre Point was referred to at the Committee stage of the Bill. That was an exceptional case because we all know who is the owner of that Centre Point. In the case of so many properties, while local authorities, public undertakers and so on, would want to know who are the owners of land, it is impossible for them to find out.
At the Committee stage the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor laid great stress on the fact that the Law Commission had not yet come to a final

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conclusion about this matter. More than three years ago they published a Working Paper but they have had to go over to other and more important matters. Their Report is not uninteresting. They point out in paragraph 72 of the Report that in Yorskhire the ownership of land has been publicly known for something like 90 years, because in Yorskhire alone they have had the Yorkshire Deeds Registry, and that has always been open to public inspection. Dealing with the matter generally, they say, in paragraph 77:
"… considerable support exists for some relaxation in the existing rules, particularly in relation to the non-disclosure of the names and addresses of registered proprietors."
In dealing with financial matters they say in paragraph 81:
"The majority of those who object to the register being available to public inspection do so on the ground that a registered proprietor does not wish certain financial matters, such as prices, rents and details of mortgages, to be disclosed to all and sundry. If it were possible to exclude these financial matters from public scrutiny we can see no real objection to making the remaining part of the register wholly open to public inspection."
That view is shared by a substantial number of those who have written to us.
It is the object of this Amendment to provide that at least the name and address should be open to public inspection, together with such other parts of the register as the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor might decide. In paragraph 82 the Law Commissioners say this:
"In almost every other country in the world registers of titles or of land are fully open to public inspection. Lawyers in these countries find it hard to understand why we retain a private register in this country since the advantages of an open one are to them so obvious."
Then, dealing with Scotland, they say:
"A system of registration of deeds has been in force since the early part of the 17th century. Deeds are registered in the register of Sasines and this is open to public inspection. Both the Reid and the Henry Committees on Registration of Title to Land in Scotland thought that, if registration of title were introduced in Scotland, the register should be open to public inspection."
Under the system in Northern Ireland while registration of title to land operates only in respect of certain titles, that is open to public inspection, and the Law Commission say in paragraph 84:
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"The Lowry Committee on Registration of Title to Land in Northern Ireland have recommended that compulsory registration under the existing system be extended and a majority considered that the register should remain fully public."
It seems extraordinary that where practically the whole world, including Scotland and Northern Ireland, makes no secret of who owns land, we alone should do so. The first proposal made by the Law Commission at the end of their publication is:
"That on application being made by any member of the public, and on payment of a small fee, the Registry would notify to the applicant the name and address of the registered proprietor of any registered title."
My Lords, I beg to move.
VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDS: My Lords, it is absurd that in these days it should be impossible to find out who are the owners of land. All sorts of people want to do all sorts of intelligent things in towns in our countryside and are thoroughly frustrated by the great difficulty of finding out who is the owner of a particular piece of land. I well remember that in Wales people from a small town came to me because they were grossly hindered over a piece of land which was getting in a terrible state and whose ownership could not be discovered. I suggested that they seized it, because the only person who could object would be the owner who would therefore have to reveal himself. They were rather shy about doing that and I therefore suggested it be seized in my name. That night an all-Party committee of locals crept out and fenced in the land and put up a notice: "Seized by Lord St. Davids", and left the locality to discover the fact in the morning. Shortly afterwards I received a letter from the real owner of the land asking me what I meant taking this action, thus revealing who he was; otherwise I do not know that we should ever have found out.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, we discussed this in Committee and I promised to look at the matter, and I will promise again to examine it. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner, has to some extent got the wrong end of the stick here. First of all, there are two classes of case where this matter has given trouble, and I have been careful to deal with both of them in what I think is the proper way and not the

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wrong way. The first is the right—I recognise it is a moral right and it will soon become a legal right as a result of the action I have taken with my right honourable friend—of a tenant to know of the identity of his landlord. Mr. Rippon announced that in the House of Commons, I think in early November but certainly some time ago, and that will be part of his Bill when it goes through Parliament. If under this Bill it had been left to the tenant to find out who his landlord was, he would never had found it out under the noble and learned Lord's Amendment, for a reason that I shall give in a moment.
Secondly, there is difficulty in criminal cases, for reasons which I gave on, I think, Second Reading, but certainly at Committee stage, and that is dealt with in the Bill in the three subsections which this Amendment would leave out, substituting this wider Amendment which I do not think is quite so apt to the purpose. The noble Lord is quite right, of course, in saying that the Law Commission have issued a Working Paper on this subject. They issued a Working Paper in which the professions were to be consulted, and two alternative solutions, neither of which is identical with that now proposed by the noble Lord, were put forward. It is equally true, as I told the House on Committee—I expect the noble Lord knew it already—that this had been postponed because I had to ask the Law Commission to transfer their attention to matters like gazumping, which I thought carried a higher priority.
The matter, at present, stands like this: that the two professions are hostile and the matter will prove to be controversial, and I suggested to the noble and learned Lord on Committee—and I think it was not an unreasonable suggestion—that he should pursue the procedure which he himself has constantly recommended when he was dealing with, for instance, the proposals of the Law Reform Committee or the Criminal Law Revision Committee, in allowing the Law Commission procedure to work itself out. After all, he is the father of the Law Commission, and I think he has some reason to be proud of his offspring. I suggest that it would be better if he gave his offspring a chance to carry
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out its natural functions without interference.
The fact is that this proposal, as it stands, would not achieve the purpose which the noble and learned Lord has in mind; and, in fact, nothing which would be within the ambit of this Bill would. I have already pointed this out in relation to landlord and tenant. In fact, if anybody wished to conceal the ownership of land he would simply put it in the hands of trustees or a nominee, and all you would see on the register would be the name of the trustee or the nominee. I concede at once, that there are reasons, or may be reasons, why the true owners of land ought to be capable of identity, but this Amendment will not achieve it. The only thing that this will achieve is that the person who appears on the register can be seen. This is a very bad way of achieving that object, if it be desired to do it.
It would have the side effect, as I pointed out in Committee, of obstructing some of the purposes of the Bill, the main purpose of which is to allow the Land Registry to get on with the process of registration. Less than half the land at the moment, viewed on a population basis, and rather less than one-tenth of the land in this country (by which I mean in England and Wales) on an area basis, is registered. The purpose of this Bill is to encourage registration. The effect of the Amendment would be to divert extremely scarce manpower to carrying out the purpose of letting people know who the nominal owner of the land is without telling them either who the beneficial owner of the land is or, I think—alhough I am a child in these matters—who the various other people with interests in the land are, such as the tenants. So it would be a fairly useless operation.
There is one other point. I myself find the obligation to disclose the exact financial transactions, which are referred to in the latter part of the Amendment, objectionable as well. It would be only those who chose to enter the financial transactions, which are not universally in the Land Register, who would reveal them; and those who wished to hide them would still be able to hide them. Those who have entered them have entered them in reliance on their present

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confidentiality, so they would be penalised for having done something on the faith of the law which is now to be removed. I understood the noble and learned Lord to say that this part of his Amendment would not be one for which he would die in the last ditch (to use a metaphorical expression), but I think that that objection still applies to the proposal as it stands. I wish to make it absolutely plain that I am not in the least hostile to a proposal that the true owner of the land should be known, or knowable, in any given case; but to select registered land, which is less than a tenth, area-wise, of the land in the country for different treatment from the rest seems to me to be confusing and probably unfair.
I suggest that the Law Commission should be allowed to get on with their work. As I say, I am not opposing this as a principle; on the contrary, I think if a workmanlike way of considering this matter were put forward, and if it were a matter of widespread consent to introduce a workmanlike measure on those lines I am far from saying I would oppose it. I might be one of the first to support it. I would ask the noble Lord to think of this issue again. I will promise to think of it again in the meantime, and I will consult the Registrar on the subject further, although I did carry out my promise to do so before. At the moment, I do not think that this Amendment will do although it may be that something else will.
LORD GARDINER: My Lords, I think that has been a useful discussion. It is clear that if I omitted from the Amendment the words, "and the price paid for property", the noble and learned Lord would still not be prepared to accept the Amendment. I cannot, I am afraid, accept all of his arguments. I cannot, any more than I could at the Committee stage, accept that there would be something wrong in treating differently those who are registered from those who are not when he himself, by this Bill, is providing that the Director of Public Prosecutions can be given access to the Register only, of course, in the case of those whose title is registered. I should have thought that exactly the same argument applies.
The noble and learned Lord has asked me to leave this matter to
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the Law Commission without interference. That is a somewhat strange phrase, because, of course, the Law Commission would have completed their report on the subject by this time if the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor, had not interfered with them, prevented them from doing so and directed their attention to other matters. My Lords, I do not think I can carry this further to-day. As the House knows, there is a Private Member's Bill in the other place directed solely to this question of the publicity of the Land Register. In any case, this Bill has to be considered in the other place. I do not think, therefore, that I can carry the matter any further, and I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 6 [Functions of the Chief Land Registrar]:
3.29 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 2:
Page 7, line 2, leave out ("under the Land Registration Act 1925 and the rules made thereunder").
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I think it would be convenient for me to discuss my Amendments Nos. 2, 3, 4 and 6, together. I hope that I can persuade the House that these are purely drafting Amendments, but I should like, for the sake of candour, to tell the House what they are about. There is a Committee which deals with the remuneration of solicitors for uncontentious business. It is a Statutory Committee which exists under the Solicitors Act, and the Chief Land Registrar is a member of it for the purpose of the business which comes within his jurisdiction. If these Amendments were not passed, instead of his continuing to be a member of that Committee for that limited purpose, the whole new Land Registry Board would be a member of the Committee for that purpose; and that is thought inappropriate. I therefore beg to move. Unless the noble and learned Lord or any other noble Member of the House thought there was something to discuss, I do not think there is any question of principle in it at all.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I have explained Amendment No. 3. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 5, after ("jurisdiction") insert ("under the Land Registration Act 1925 and the rules made thereunder").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No.4.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 10, leave out ("of that Act").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 10 [The initial debt]:
3.31 p.m.
LORD GARDINER LORD GARDINER moved Amendment No. 5:
Page 10, line 13, at end insert—
() The initial debt shall be arrived after crediting the registering authority with the amount by which the income of the existing Land Registry has, on the vesting date, exceeded its expenditure: and no rent shall be charged by the Government to the registering authority for a building the cost of which has already been paid for in full out of fees charged to the users of the Land Registry.")
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 5. I cannot promise not to ask the House to express a view on this matter because this Amendment relates to a simple question of financial probity. The Land Registry has existed for many years and its financial remit has always been to ensure that its revenue and its outgoings balance, taking one year with another. It is intended that the same shall apply to the hived-off Land Registry, because Clause 9 of the Bill provides:
"It shall be the duty of the registering authority so to conduct its affairs as to secure that, taking one year with another, its revenue is not less than sufficient to meet its outgoings properly chargeable to revenue account."
It has not in some respects been very successful in the past, because experience has shown that Lord Chancellors have been too cautious and have either put up fees too soon or put them up by too great an amount—though I am sure that all Lord Chancellors have done their best. Therefore, there came a time when the fees of the Land Registry users had accumulated a surplus, and this surplus, whether properly or not, was used by the Land Registry to build its buildings in
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London—the Land Registry. It is common ground that that building was built entirely out of fees paid by the users, which were supposed to cover only outgoings.
Secondly, over many years a surplus was built up, which in my time was some £4 million—again, an overcharge on the users of the Land Registry. And owing to the extraordinary number of purchases and sales of property, and the inflation of property values, in the last two years the revenues exceeded the expenditure by £8 million. I should have thought it was a matter of simple financial honesty that, if the Land Registry is to be hived off, in the statement of accounts between it and the Government the Land Registry should be given credit for what by now must be about £12 million. It is going for provincial properties, and so on, to assume certain debts, and the initial debt is laid down, though not of course quantified, in the Bill. Naturally, each year where there was a surplus it was paid into the Consolidated Fund. But nobody is asking the Chancellor of the Exchequer to draw a cheque on the Consolidated Fund or to pay anything out of it. This is a simple matter of accounts. That is to say, in arriving at the initial debt which under the Bill the new Land Registry is to assume, is it not clear that financial probity necessitates credit being given by the Treasury for this £12 million?
The next point relates to the building. As it happens at the moment, with computerisation and one thing and another, the Land Registry requires to use only one-third of the Land Registry building. What is proposed in effect by the Bill is, first, that the Treasury should seize the two-thirds of the Land Registry for itself, without paying a penny for it, although the whole building was built by the fees of the users of the Land Registry. Secondly, as to the part which the new Land Registry is to continue to use—the one-third—not only is the new Land Registry not getting its own building for nothing, but it is being charged by the Treasury £150,000 a year for the right to use the premises which it itself built entirely out of the fees of the users of the Land Registry.
I can well understand, as I made plain, the desire of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor to have this Bill, the only point of which is to provide that in

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future the employees of the Land Registry will not be civil servants; and then be will not be tied by promises by budding Prime Ministers; he can go straight ahead with the full campaign to extend land registration to the whole of the country. But in effect what appears to have happened is that the Treasury have insisted that, if he really wants to do that, it is going to make it financially extremely stringent for him and for the new Land Registry to do. Well, we all know what the Treasury is. I should have thought that if a financial chicanery of this kind had been committed by somebody in the City of London, he would not last there very long. It is, I suppose, the responsibility of all Parliamentarians to ensure that Governments act honestly. I do not see how it can possibly be right if this body, which in the past has been told to operate simply on the basis that it breaks even as to revenue and expenditure taking one year with another, when it is hived off, is found, erroneously at the expense of the users of the Land Registry, not to have fulfilled its statutory duty because it has made a profit of £12 million.
Clearly in the accountancy—and it is only a matter of accountancy—in arriving at the initial debt which the new Land Registry is required to assume, it should be given credit for that figure; and also, I should have thought, for at least the cost of building the Land Registry. But when it is found, further, that not only are they not getting any credit for that, but the Treasury has the impertinence to charge them a rent of £150,000 a year for the privilege of occupying the building which they themselves built out of the fees of the users, this seems to be morally indefensible. I beg to move.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I think my noble friend wishes to make a Statement, so I will not proceed with the debate now.

THE ENERGY SITUATION
3.38 p.m.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD WINDLESHAM): My Lords, the following Statement is now being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister:
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"With permission, I will make a Statement on the energy situation.
"The ban on overtime working by the coalminers has led to a sharp fall in coal supplies to the power stations which are now running at nearly 40 per cent. below the expected level and are well below normal levels of consumption. Though the electricity supply industry started the winter with good stocks of coal, those stocks are now having to be run down at the rate of about 1 million tons a week at the present rate of electricity use, even after the restrictions already imposed.
"To conserve coal stocks my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry instructed the oil companies, on December 5, to increase supplies of fuel oil to the power stations. But fuel oil supplies are also under pressure, and a still larger allocation to the electricity industry could be only at the expense of severe further cuts to other users of fuel oil.
"Deliveries of coal and of oil to the power stations are seriously threatened by the industrial action of train drivers started yesterday by ASLEF.
"The ability of the electricity industry to deal with the consequences of these disruptions of supply has been further constrained by the action of the power engineers to restrict out-of-hours working.
"It is clear that, so long as the industrial action by the coalminers and the train drivers continues, stocks of fuel at the power stations will continue to be run down at a rate which could, before many weeks had passed, reach a point when large-scale interruption and disruption of electricity supply became unavoidable.
"In this situation the Government have a responsibility to take the measures necessary to safeguard the electricity system from major disruption, to prevent essential services from being placed in jeopardy, and to ensure the maintenance of a reasonable level of industrial activity.
"The Government judge that this requires further savings amounting to 20 per cent. of electricity consumption, in addition to the measures already announced by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Trade

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and Industry. This will inevitably require reductions in consumption in homes, in industry and in commerce.
"First, in homes. The Government the asking all domestic consumers to restrict the use of electricity for space heating in the home to one room, and then only if the householder has no other form of heating available.
"Second, in industry and commerce. From next Monday, December 17, large, continuous process users will be limited to 65 per cent. of their normal electricity consumption each week. Electricity supplies for other industry and for commercial premises will, in general, be limited to a total of any five days over the two weeks ending December 30. After that, from December 31, they will be limited to three specified days each week, which will be consecutive, and the days will be selected on the basis of scheduled drawn up for each Electricity Board area. On the days when firms are free to use electricity, they will not be able to work longer hours than usual. Maintenance or other work not involving the use of electricity could continue on other days and most shops and offices would also be able to open on those days, though they would not be able to use electricity.
"Orders to give effect to the restrictions on industry and commerce will be made over the next few days. The Orders will name certain essential businesses which will be exempt from these restrictions, and specify other special purposes for which the use of electricity would be permitted at all times; for example, the operation of fire-fighting equipment, computers, cheque-sorting machinery and office machinery.
"From next Monday, B.B.C. Television and Independent Television Services will close down not later than 10.30 p.m. each evening, save over Christmas and on New Year's Eve.
"In addition, the Government asks that everyone should economise in the use of all fuels and save all the electricity they can. There are innumerable ways in which all of us can do this: by keeping rooms at lower temperatures and heating them for shorter periods; by switching off lights and by not using electrical appliances unless absolutely
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necessary; by setting thermostats controlling water-heaters, refrigerators and deep-freezers at the most economical levels; by reducing lighting levels in theatres and other places of entertainment. These are only examples: unless we can save electricity—and indeed all fuels—in every aspect of our daily lives, we shall have to impose yet further restrictions on business.
"Mr. Speaker, you will have noted that the measures we propose do not include rota cuts or periods of electricity disconnection. The Government have thought it right to avoid such cuts as long as possible, particularly in view of the fact that the ban on out-of-hours working by the power engineers would mean that any cuts would have to be highly unselective and would be bound to affect essential services. But I must warn the House and the country. If we failed to achieve the necessary savings in electricity consumption as a result of the reduction in domestic consumption for which we are asking and the other measures I have announced, frequent periods of electricity disconnection would become unavoidable. Essential industries and vital services would be cut indiscriminately. Young and old alike, at home, at work, or in hospitals, would all be hit.
"Mr. Speaker, I should also like to say a few words to the House about the oil situation.
"The restrictions on oil exports by the Arab oil-producing countries affect the whole world: the developed countries of North America, Europe and Japan and the developing countries in Africa, Asia and Central and South America.
"We have been less hard hit than some other European countries, partly because (given normal levels of supply for other fuels) we are less dependent than they are on oil, and partly because the Arab producers have applied their reduction less severely to us.
"But, when the whole world is short of oil, we cannot escape entirely.
"This month we shall probably get about 85 tons of oil for every 100 tons we expected. The figure may be lower in January.
"That is why we have had to ask everyone to economise in the use of

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oil in the home, in the office, in the factory, in the shops, on the road. But I can confirm that, on the basis of the level of supplies we now expect, the allocations of petrol and derv to garages will continue at their present levels throughout January.
"The situation has been greatly helped by the savings which drivers have made. I should like to take this opportunity to thank the public for their co-operation. It is vital that these efforts should continue. The savings in the demand for petrol over the last few days have amounted to about 15 per cent. As a result, I can announce to-day that, although plans for rationing will proceed so that it could be introduced at short notice, it will not be introduced this side of the New Year.
"The improvement of the supply position clearly depends upon progress towards a peace settlement in the Middle East. The peace conference is due to open in Geneva on December 16. We are going and will continue to do all we can, by diplomatic means, to promote the success of the conference and to make the Arab oil-producing countries aware of the hardship and the damage which the restrictions inflict.
"We must hope that the shortage of supplies will be reversed before long. We cannot expect the sharp rise in oil prices to be reversed. This is bound to have a very damaging effect upon our balance of payments, which is in any case running in substantial deficit at present.
"Until a few weeks ago we could foresee a progressive diminution in the balance-of-payments deficit during the course of next year. But that prospect has now disappeared. We shall have to find—and therefore to earn—much more foreign exchange in order to pay for the same amount of oil.
"In the long run some of the money will, we hope, come back to us in payment for increased exports to the oil-producing countries, who will need the goods and services we can provide for their own development.
"And here again we in Britain are more fortunate than most. Within five
1290
to seven years we can look forward to bringing two-thirds of the amount of oil we need in from the North Sea. This will in due course make an enormous improvement in our balance-of-payments position.
"But that does not help in the immediate future. In the short run, if we have to have oil, as we do, and we have to pay more for it, as we shall, the country will have less to spend on other things from abroad. The Chancellor of the Exchequer will be making a Statement in the House on Monday about fresh measures to achieve these purposes. For the time being we shall have to postpone some of the hopes and aims we have set ourselves for expansion and for our standard of living.
"Other countries will be similarly affected by the rise in oil prices and will be having to consider the implications for their balance of payments. In this situation there is an acute danger that, if we all independently resort to deflationary measures for the sake of our individual balances of payments, we shall set off a disastrous slump in the level of world trade. It will require all the effort and all the farsightedness of which the international community is capable to escape this consequence.
"I leave for Copenhagen this evening for the Community summit meeting to-morrow. We shall be discussing the energy situation in all its aspects; but this particular aspect will be very much in mind.
"The House will have seen that in his speech in London last night Dr. Kissinger announced a proposal for an Energy Action Group, which would have as its goal the assurance of required energy supplies at reasonable cost. Under this proposal the nations of North America, Europe and Japan would co-operate in a programme to rationalise and conserve the use of energy, develop alternative sources of supply, and give existing producers an incentive to increase supply. I shall be discussing this with the other Community Heads of Government at Copenhagen; but I can say here and now that the British Government warmly welcomes this imaginative proposal, which is in the great tradition of the Marshall Plan after the war.

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"I must apologise to the House for so long a Statement; but it seemed to me that the House should be given as full a statement of the position as possible, as a basis for our debate next week."
3.53 p.m.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord the Leader of the House for reading this lengthy Statement, which is of such gravity that I find it very difficult to make any comment now. Since it is clear that we are in a situation of the greatest seriousness we shall, of course, need to debate the whole position at a very early date, and at that time perhaps we can consider how we got into that position.
I have two points only that I would ask about now. First, there is a reference to cutting to 65 per cent. the supply of the continuous process industries who are dependent on electricity. I do not know whether the noble Lord can answer this point, but it would appear to mean that some industries, if they are continuous processing industries dependent upon electricity, would have to cease operating entirely. Secondly, referring to the rightly described imaginative statement of Doctor Kissinger, I was a little concerned, since the Prime Minister is going to Copenhagen tomorrow, at the suggestion that the Energy Action Group would be considering giving existing producers the incentive to increase supply. I hope this is economic and financial, and not political. I hope it does not herald new pressure on Israel. I make that point as a warning, because it could be political.
My Lords, I understand that the Chief Whip has indicated that there may be some rearrangement of business. Clearly there will need to be at least a whole day's debate on this subject. At the same time, we ought not just to push out of the way the debate on Northern Ireland. Perhaps at some stage later on we shall have a Statement.
3.55 p.m.
LORD AVEBURY: My Lords, we on these Benches also thank the noble Lord the Leader of the House for repeating the Statement which has been made in another place. So far as concerns the welcome which has been given by the Prime Minister to Dr. Kissinger's
1292
initiative, we also endorse that very warmly. We hope the discussions with our partners in Europe and the United States may concentrate on the management of demand as well as the finding of alternative sources of supply. It is to be hoped that we may learn something from the work already done on this in the United States, particularly the recommendations made by the Office of Emergency Preparedness to President Nixon on the means whereby consumption of energy sources in the United States can be reduced by 30 per cent. We could learn a lot from that, and I hope that the Government will study the recommendations made to President Nixon.
My Lords, so far as the domestic situation is concerned, we will go along with the reductions which the Government have announced because we are quite sure that they are necessary. Indeed, my noble friends and honourable friends in another place have been asking for measures to be taken along these lines for some considerable time past. As regards the use of electricity for space heating, would not the Government consider going one stage further, and placing a complete bar on the unrestricted sale of electrict heaters for use in homes during the crisis for as long as it lasts? So far as industry is concerned, may I ask the noble Lord the Leader of the House for a little clarification on the question of how much electricity people will be able to use during the three days per week permitted after December 30? If they have been working a certain amount of overtime during December, or in the winter months leading up to the emergency, will they be allowed, under the phrase "longer hours than usual", to continue working that amount of overtime during the three days they are going to work? Secondly, can the noble Lord say how those who are exempted from these restrictions because, for example, they are working with computers or office machinery, will be able to comply with these restrictions, and how the restrictions on ordinary consumers who are not entitled to concessions will be enforced?
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, both the noble Lords. Lord Shepherd and Lord Avebury, referred to Dr. Kissinger's speech. I believe it would be best not to add to what was said in the Statement, since the Prime Minister referred to the

1293
fact that this would be discussed by the Heads of State and the Heads of Government of the European Community who are to be meeting in Copenhagen shortly.
As to the large continuous process industries, the intention is to try to enable such industries (for example aluminium smelters) to continue to keep going, but on the basis of a reduction in power supply, using 65 per cent. of the electricity consumption that they would normally require. If I can add to this information in the debate next week I will.
The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, asked about the sale of appliances for domestic space heating. I will take note of that point and pass it on to my right honourable friend. The Government are concerned primarily with the use of appliances rather than their sale, but I take the noble Lord's point. As to the hours of work, I should like a little notice in order to be able to give an accurate answer to the point the noble Lord has raised. Subject to correction, my understanding would be that the normal hours of work over the year should be regarded as the hours of work to which the premises would be confined; otherwise it would be possible, by very substantial overtime, to get round the aim and purpose of the restrictions.
My Lords, with reference to exemptions, there are a whole number of these, mainly by category. These will be included in the Order when it is tabled; the Order will be available to your Lordships when we have our debates next week. Where employers are in some doubt, whether in commerce or industry, as to whether or not they fall within an exempted category, we hope they will get in touch with the regional officers of the Department of Trade and Industry, and consult with them. As for the business for next week, it would be helpful if my noble friend the Chief Whip made a Statement.

BUSINESS CHANGES
4.0 p.m.
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, earlier this afternoon, I promised to make a Statement about the arrangement of business next week. It has been agreed through the usual channels that all Northern Ireland business should be shifted
1294
to Wednesday, December 19 in place of the two Short Debates. I am glad to say that the noble Lords who were to move Motions have kindly agreed to postpone them until after the Recess. I should add that this will require an Order of your Lordships' House, as the House has agreed that two Short Debates should be held each month and they will not now be held during the month of December. In addition, the Third Reading of the Safety of Sports Grounds Bill will also be postponed until Wednesday, December 19. This will allow us to hold a full debate on the economic and industrial situation on Tuesday, December 18.
I hope, my Lords, that these arrangements will commend themselves.
LORD WIGG: My Lords, may I revert to the Statement made earlier by the Leader of the House? Is he not aware that the Statement he has made today is one of the gravest that has been made to Parliament for very many years? Is he not aware that it underlines the complete collapse of the Government's economic policy, and that it only goes as far as to deal with remedies following on the collapse of that policy? Do the Government not agree that, somehow or other, they have to make a fresh start? In order to introduce a new atmosphere into industry, would not a fresh start be for the Government to announce that they are going to repeal in toto the Industrial Relations Act, and then to initiate talks to see what parts of it can be saved?
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, reference to the Industrial Relations Act was made when I repeated the Home Secretary's Statement on the continuation of the State of Emergency yesterday. My reply now is the same as my reply then. This is a much wider and graver situation due to a whole number of causes, and to try to simplify things in these black and white terms does a disservice to the public as a whole.
LORD BALOGH: My Lords, does not the noble Lord think that, as the situation is very grave, the sort of negative measures which he proposes are completely insufficient, because without a package deal which would embrace what the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, said just now, it is quite impossible to deal with this situation? Does the noble Lord the

1295
Leader of the House remember Lord Gowrie's speech, which was complacent to a degree, only six weeks ago?
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, the Government have no intention of denying the gravity of the situation. I said that yesterday, and I repeat it now. The Prime Minister's Statement shows that the Government have analysed with the greatest possible care the situation in which we find ourselves, and have brought forward what we believe to be the correct measures to deal with the situation. As the Statement says, the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be making a further Statement on Monday, and since our debate is to be on Tuesday we shall be able to take that into account when we have the general debate. My Lords, the Statement to-day represents our judgment of the situation. While other noble Lords will no doubt have their judgment, the Government believe that the measures described in the Statement are the correct way to deal with the situation with which we are faced.
VISCOUNT WATKINSON: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that industry will want to co-operate with the Government and will see this as a challenge to their ingenuity and ability? We have seen worse before and have got through. However, might I ask my noble friend this question. Clearly, the initial situation will be confused until industry sees exactly how cuts can be applied, and so on. Would he perhaps give an assurance that the Department of Trade and Industry, the Department of Employment and the other Ministries concerned, will do all they possibly can to brief industry now on the precise action which they want it to take? If such briefing takes place, I am sure that industry will be 100 per cent. willing to co-operate.
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, the noble Lord speaks with great experience as an industrialist as well as a former member of the Government, and I am encouraged to hear what he has to say. The Government Departments concerned will want to do exactly as he has asked and to keep in the closest possible touch. The measures are to operate in two stages. There is an interim stage up till the end of the year, with five days' work until the end of the year at the choice
1296
of the employer. This will give more flexibility in the interim stage before the 3-day working comes in from January 1.
LORD BERNSTEIN: My Lords, will th Leader of the House promise that on Tuesday he will tell us in clear terms how the Government propose to deal with this matter? We have heard a tale of woe which will give no satisfaction. We should like to know what the Government proposals are for dealing with the present situation.
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, the Statement was already a full one, and the Prime Minister apologised for its length. I should do the same. What it did was to explain the causes of the situation, to give the facts for which the public have been asking. I believe it was quite right to do that, and to explain what measures were being taken —voluntary measures and measures backed by the force of law—to restrict the consumption of electricity. That is the narrow point contained in the Statement, and it is of very great public importance. It is essential that it is widely understood and that the reasons behind it are understood. In a wider debate we can cover some of the points which were raised in questions just now following the Statement.
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that many people will agree with the views of my noble friends, that the Government are really at the moment dealing with the symptoms and not with the disease? Is he also aware that in that context many of us will welcome his statement, or that of the Prime Minister, that the proposal of Dr. Kissinger for an Energy Action Group will be received sympathetically by Her Majesty's Government? Will the noble Lord the Leader of the House assure the House that at the Conference in Copenhagen the Prime Minister will press the present proposal from Dr. Kissinger with greater enthusiasm than was given to his earlier proposal for an Atlantic Charter to which Her Majesty's Government showed a notably luke-warm reaction? Can he further assure the House that at the Conference in Copenhagen the Prime Minister will, with his European colleagues, not allow the Dutch Government in this oil situation to stand on its own,

1297
but that he will impress on his European colleagues the necessity to press for a common policy towards the Arabs on the oil production question?
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, the Prime Minister's words warmly welcomed Dr. Kissinger's proposal. That answers the first part of the question. The Heads of State and the Heads of Government will be meeting as members of the enlarged Community. They are aware of their status as members of the European Community, as well as the responsibility they have for the welfare of their own nations, and they will come to a judgment as to how these two matters should be held in balance.
LORD PARGITER: My Lords, would the noble Lord consider recommending to his right honourable friend that the rigidity of Phase 3 might be eased a little with regard to the mines, so that within the total amount of money available something might be done about the base rate of miners instead of so much importance being attached to social hours and things of that sort?
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, many people are asking themselves whether the limits of Phase 3 might prove too generous in the months ahead.
LORD HANKEY: My Lords, will the Government consider bringing the Energy Action Group, which is an excellent idea, under the aegis of O.E.C.D., where there are premises available and a highly skilled, trained staff accustomed to dealing with energy prolems, especially as it is an organisation of which the United States, Canada, Japan as well as all the European countries are members?
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, the proposal was made only last night, but I will draw that suggestion to the attention of those of my right honourable friends who are concerned.

LAND REGISTRY BILL [H.L.]
4.9 p.m.
Report stage resumed.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, may we now return to the fascinating topic of the Amendment of
1298
the noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner, to the Land Registry Bill. The learned Lord referred to this matter in somewhat extravagant terms of "financial probity", "behaving honestly"—and I forget the third phrase. There is a question of principle involved. I do not think it has anything to do with honesty, so long as one applies one's mind honestly to the solution of the question. Although I would bow with respect and admiration to the noble and learned Lord on matters of law, and indeed on many other matters, I do not think I give him any marks for mathematics or chartered accountancy.
The noble and learned Lord has made two points and they are cognate, and I should like to state them as I see them. It is of course perfectly true that between the year 1900 and the year 1927 the enormous building in Lincoln's Inn Fields which is called the Land Registry building —a very small part of which is now occupied by the Land Registry, the rest I think being occupied by the Public Records Office—was bought out of the fees of the then Land Registry, paid for by those who at that time were transferring land. That building became a Crown asset as long ago as 1927, and, as I say, the Land Registry still occupies a small part of it.
The Land Registry as a continuing business is now being hived off under the new Land Registry Board, for reasons which I have explained and which the House has approved. But the noble and learned Lord comes along and says that as a matter of financial probity a gift, amounting to I do not know how many millions of pounds under this head, ought to be given to the new Board for the benefit of those who are going to enjoy the advantages of land registration and land transfer in the future. I suppose there could be a kind of sentimental plausibility about it if they were the same people who had spent their money transferring land between 1900 and 1927. But I should be very much surprised myself if one of them were the same person. I cannot for the life of me see why the transferors of land in the future, who are, of course, a very worthy class in the community but not a particularly indigent class, should be given a gift out of the taxpayers' money of £150,000 a year, representing a capital value of I do not

1299
know how many millions, simply because people who transferred land between 1900 and 1927 happened to have bought a building which subsequently became Crown property and part of which is now occupied for the purpose of land registration. I believe that if the noble Lord, Lord Diamond, were standing where he used to stand as Financial Secretary to the Treasury—and long will I remember his brilliant and fascinating speeches in another place when he did so—and were advising the noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner, about his accountancy, he would frankly use terms about his claim that this was an example of financial probity which I would not venture to use in public debate in Parliament. I would advise the noble and learned Lord to consult his noble friend about this topic.
The other point which the noble and learned Lord made is almost exactly the same. He thinks that because the Land Registry made a profit of £12 million—that is his figure, not mine; I am not sure that plus or minus a few pounds it matters very much whether he is right or wrong, so I will not quarrel with him about that—before being handed over, which, incidentally, allowed me to reduce the fees by 20 per cent. last summer, a gift should be made out of taxpayers' money to those who are going to transfer land after the hiving off.
I do not believe that either proposition is tenable. I do not believe that it would be tenable if it was a private firm handing over a subsidiary company to a new owner. I do not think it would be tenable if it were a local authority, and I do not think it is tenable on the basis of public finance. I hope that after that explanation the noble and learned Lord —whom the whole House holds in respect bordering upon awe, and I am the leader of them in this respect—on reflection will feel that this is not a subject on which he need press the House to a Division. If he were to do so, I should be prepared to advise my noble friends to vote against it, not merely on the grounds of sound mathematics but even on the grounds of financial probity.
LORD GARDINER: My Lords, I am afraid that I must ask the House to express a view about this. Of course, one can only regard the users of the Land Registry, naturally, as a body; but they have always been told, and indeed Parliament has enacted, that the finances of the Land Registry are to be so conducted—which really means the size of the fees charged—as to secure on revenue account that its expenditure and its revenue balance taking one year with another. I am perfectly certain that if, on it being decided to hive off the Land Registry to a new body on exactly the same financial terms, over the years there had been a deficit, the first thing on which the Treasury would have absolutely insisted before agreeing to the hiving off is that that deficit must form part of the initial debt with which the new Land Registry was to start, and I think that would have been quite right. Whether the users change from day to day is not the point. It cannot be right that, because Lord Chancellors have put up fees too soon or charged too much and there is an existing surplus, that should not be allowed for in the accounts as against what is called in the Bill the initial debt. Certainly in the past, where in times of inflation there has been a deficit for a year or two and then the fees have been put up, the Treasury have, I think quite naturally and properly, always insisted that the increase in fees should provide not merely that they should break even in that year, but that the past deficit should be made up. Surely what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
When it comes to the Treasury charging the Land Registry £150,000 a year for the use of a part only of the building for which the Land Registry have already paid themselves, I should have thought there was no answer to that, and I am not surprised that the noble and learned Lord has not been able to find one. I sympathise very much with him in his position; he wants to get the Bill through, and we all know what the Treasury are. But they really should not be allowed to get away with this one. I must ask the House to express an opinion.
4.18 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said Amendment (No. 5) shall be agreed to?
Schedule 2 [Amendment of Enactments in Connection with Reorganisation of Land Registry Business]:
4.25 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, T rise to move Amendment No. 6, which I have already explained.
Amendment moved—
Page 21, line 33, at end insert ("and the following enactments in the Solicitors Act 1957, that is to say, in section 56, subsections (1) and (2).").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 55; Not-Contents, 73.

CONTENTS

Airedale, L.

Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.

Peddie, L.

Amherst, E.

Faringdon, L.

Sainsbury, L.

Ardwick, L.

Gaitskell, B.

St. Davids, V.

Arwyn, L.

Gardiner, L.

Seear, B.

Balogh, L.

Garnsworthy, L. [Teller.]

Segal, L.

Beaumont of Whitley, L.

George-Brown, L.

Shackleton, L.

Bernstein, L.

Hall, V.

Shannon, E.

Beswick, L.

Henderson, L.

Shepherd, L.

Birk, B.

Henley, L.

Shinwell, L.

Blyton, L.

Hughes, L.

Simon, V.

Brockway, L.

Jacques, L.

Snow, L.

Buckinghamshire, E.

Leatherland, L.

Stow Hill, L.

Chalfont, L

Lloyd of Kilgerran, L.

Strabolgi, L. [Teller.]

Clwyd, L

Longford, E.

Summerskill, B.

Cole, L.

McLeavy, L.

Wells-Pestell, L.

Crook, L.

Morris of Grasmere, L.

White, B.

Davies of Leek, L.

Noel-Buxton, L.

Wigg, L.

De Ramsey, L.

Ogmore, L.

Winterbottom, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Aberdare, L.

Ferrers, E.

Mowbray and Stourton, L. [Teller.]

Ailsa, M.

Garner, L.

Amory, V.

Gisborough, L.

Northchurch, B.

Barnby, L.

Gowrie, E.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Berkeley, B.

Grantchester, L.

Rankeillour, L.

Brooke of Cumnor, L.

Greenway, L.

Roberthall, L.

Brooke of Ystradfellte, B.

Grimston of Westbury, L.

Rockley, L.

Caccia, L.

Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Ruthven of Freeland, Ly.

Carrington, L.

St Aldwyn, E.

Chorley, L.

Harvey of Prestbury, L.

Savile, L.

Clancarty, E.

Hawke, L.

Stamp, L.

Coleraine, L.

Hewlett, L.

Strathclyde, L.

Colville of Culross, V.

Hylton-Foster, B.

Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.

Conesford, L.

Ironside, L.

Craigavon, V.

Jessel, L.

Strathspey, L.

Craigton, L.

Limerick, E.

Teviot, L.

Daventry, V.

Lyell, L.

Thorneycroft, L.

de Clifford, L.

Macleod of Borve, B.

Tweedsmuir, L.

Denham, L. [Teller.]

Mansfield, E.

Tweedsmuir of Belhelvie, B.

Drumalbyn, L.

Mar, E.

Vivian, L.

Eccles, V,

Massereene and Ferrard, V.

Wakefield of Kendal, L.

Effingham, E.

Merrivale, L.

Windlesham, L. (L. Privy Seal.)

Elgin and Kincardine, E.

Middleton, L.

Wise, L.

Elles, B.

Milverton, L.

Wolverton, L.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Molson, L.

Young, B.

Elton, L.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Schedule 2 [Amendment of Enactments and Liabilities to the New Public Authority and Other Transitional Provisions]:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 7:
Page 29, line 19, at end insert the following paragraph—
(" . Any instrument or other document in force before the appointed day shall, so far as may be necessary in consequence of the enactment of section 3 of this Act, have effect on and after that day as if—

(a) references to the Chief Land Registrar were (or, if the context so requires, included) references to the registering authority;

(b) references to Her Majesty's Land Registry were (or, if the context so requires,

1303
included) references to the registering authority or, as the case may require, an office of that authority.")

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I rise to move Amendment No. 7, which is a technical Amendment to meet the point raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner, at Committee stage, as to the absence from the Bill of any transitional provision whereby references in private documents may be construed by reference to the new Land Registry organisation in place of the organisation which existed when the document was executed. Further consideration has, as I promised, been given to it, and that consideration has confirmed that the noble and learned Lord and his informant, who I think is a writer in one of the professional newspapers, were right, and that the matter ought to be attended to. The purpose of this Amendment No. 7, which is the last one, is to attend to it. I think that the draftsmanship is technical.
LORD GARDINER: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor for having given consideration to this point and for moving this Amendment to improve the position.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for having drawn the omission to our attention and thus improving the Bill.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.

CLYDE PORT AUTHORITY (HUNTERSTON ORE TERMINAL) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1ª, and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act 1936) deemed to have been read 2a and reported from the Committee.

PROTECTION OF THE ENVIRONMENT BILL [H.L.]
4.28 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF THE ENVIRONMENT (BARONESS YOUNG): My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, that the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Baroness Young.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD HENLEY in the Chair.]
BARONESS WHITE BARONESS WHITE moved Amendment No. 1:
Before Clause 1 insert the following new clause:
Duty of public authorities to have regard to pollution
(" . It shall be the duty of all public authorities in reaching decisions affecting the use of land, water or air to have regard to possible pollution, including noise, arising therefrom, and to take all practicable steps towards the avoidance or mitigation of such pollutant effects; in particular, it shall be the duty of a planning authority to obtain all possible information on the likely pollutant effect of any proposed development and, where necessary, to attach appropriate conditions to any consent which may be given.")
The noble Baroness said: As your Lordships are aware, we on this side of the Committee in general terms very much welcome this Bill and wish, so far as possible, to be entirely co-operative in its passage. I hope that it will not seem too carping if I draw to the attention of your Lordships the fact that, according to my computation, there are no fewer than 91 Government Amendments on the Order Paper for Committee stage. Very few of these arise out of our deliberations on Second Reading. It is proper to draw attention to this fact, because it means that we shall have to spend a good deal of time in this House going through the formalities of passing what are sometimes Amendments of substance but a good many of them drafting Amendments which, quite frankly, one hoped would have been sorted out before the Bill came before us. I mention this because we may have a fairly long Committee stage, and I should not wish any noble Lords who are not closely involved in our discussions on the Bill to suppose that the number of Amendments on the Order Paper is all due to Parties on this side of the House.
I beg to move the first Amendment which stands in my name and that of my noble friend, Lord Garnsworthy. I do this because I know from a number of representations which I have received from those who are concerned with amenity and the avoidance of pollution

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that they feel that this Bill, although it is an admirable Bill so far as it goes, misses an opportunity to make plain how seriously we take this whole question of dealing with pollution. It therefore appears to us to be right and proper that at the outset of the Bill we should have some kind of declaratory statement making it clear that we regard pollution in all its aspects as something which is thoroughly undesirable and something which is to be avoided in so far as it is possible to avoid it. As I said when we were discussing the Bill in general terms on Second Reading, there is a declaratory section in the Countryside Act. This proposed new clause is not drafted in precisely the same terms, partly because we think that in this particular Bill one can be much more specific and direct in one's references to possible pollution. So we make it plain that in our view it should be the duty of all public authorities, if they are taking decisions which would affect the use of land, water or air, to have regard to possible pollution. We have mentioned noise specifically because that might not otherwise occur to them as being a form of pollution; but as there is a complete Part of this Bill concerned with it, it is very much within the general terms of this legislation.
All we are proposing in this Amendment is that public authorities should take
"all practicable steps towards the avoidance or mitigation of such pollutant effects".
This seems to me to be something which ought to become just common practice in Government Departments and in the affairs of local authorities, public corporations or boards. One hopes that it will also enter into the consideration of private enterprises and individuals in their own personal and domestic affairs, but I think it would be unreasonable to legislate specifically for them. Your Lordships will notice that we have more especially drawn attention to one sphere of public activity; namely, that of planning authorities. That is because so often it will lie with them as to whether or not developments are permitted which could have undesirable pollutant effects. We recognise that in many activities of life there is bound to be some sort of pollution; it is inevitable. All we are saying is that it should be taken into account when decisions are reached; and
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a declaration that it should be taken into account would, I think, help those who sometimes carry on a fairly lonely battle. Although the forces against pollution are growing in number almost daily, I think such a declaration would help them if they felt that decisions were being taken by planning authorities which did not give adequate consideration to the possible pollutant effects of proposed development. Circumstances will vary very much from one place to another. One has especially in mind places of outstanding natural beauty, but also developments which might take place near a housing development, where people's private lives might be very much affected, as they certainly have been in the part of the country that I come from. So we think it is, as I say, right and proper that in the opening clause of this Bill we should make it plain that we are all anxious that public authorities should have this duty brought before them. Many of them, of course, observe it already, but by no means all, and we think that they should have this duty brought before them and that there should be no dubiety in the matter.
I hope that the Government will feel disposed to accept this Amendment. If they have any hesitation about it, I admit that I myself have had second thoughts about including the words, four lines from the end, "all possible". That, perhaps, was going a little too far for common sense—and I do try to be sensible in these matters. If the only objection that the Government have to the drafting of this clause is that that is perhaps asking a little too much of busy planning authorities, I should have no objection to deleting those two words, as long as they obtained
"information on the likely pollutant effect of any proposed development".
But I hope very much that we may begin our deliberations on this Bill with something a good deal more positive in principle than the draftsmen of the Bill have permitted themselves so far. I beg to move.
VISCOUNT AMORY: The noble Baroness, Lady White, has made it clear that what she has in mind is a declaratory statement at the beginning to emphasise the importance of local authorities getting down to these functions and dealing with pollution. Often situations arise in

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which I think a declaratory statement of that kind at the beginning of a Bill is a good plan, but I am not quite sure that it is necessary in this case. Perhaps a few years ago it might have been necessary, but public opinion and local government is now so alert to pollution in all its branches that it is hardly necessary; and the whole theme of this Bill has this precise point running through it. So I personally have some doubts whether it would be necessary, although it may be that there would be no objection at all to a declaratory statement in the right terms.
The noble Baroness mentioned the Countryside Act, and I imagine that what she has in mind is a sort of parallel statement to the one that is in that Act. I should like to ask her about the words "public authorities". Would that be intended to cover all authorities— central Government authorities, bodies sponsored by central Government, and so on? I am thinking of bodies outside—the Forestry Commission, for instance. Or would it be only local public authorities that she has in mind? I should have some doubts as to whether the word "practicable" is right here, and whether a word like "reasonable" would not be better, because some things which would be practicable would be far from reasonable.
But when I turn to the second half of this proposed declaratory statement, there are some words there which I think are rather objectionable. I agree with the noble Baroness that "all possible" is rather pushing it a little too far; but I have in mind here that planning authorities have a number of specific and clear responsibilities laid on them by various Acts, and it is a mistake to think of a planning authority as a sort of long-stop which is there just to catch anything and take some action about it. They already have to consider all relevant matters within their fields of responsibility; and, as noble Lords will agree, planning staffs are in desperately short supply at the present moment. Authorities at county and district level are finding it very difficult indeed to recruit them and in fact are outbidding one another for the staff that exists. Then, may not the words, "attach appropriate conditions" conflict with, or duplicate, the powers and duties which really would be appropri-
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ate to other authorities? So my conclusion is that while I see no objection to a declaratory statement if the Committee feel that it would be useful, I feel that the second half of the clause dealing with the planning authorities would be unsatisfactory in its present form.
4.40 p.m.
BARONESS YOUNG: I have listened with interest to the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady White, in moving the Amendment, and to what was said by my noble friend Lord Amory. I think we are all sympathetic with the aim of this proposed new clause. We all want to achieve a better environment. I can assure the Committee that the Government are very serious in their intention on this matter. It follows therefore that we would, in general, want public authorities to consider the environmental consequences of any particular development. What I think needs to be done is to consider how far this proposed new clause would achieve the desired result. The clause is in two parts, and I should like to consider each section of it.
The first part lays a broad general duty on public authorities (they are not specifically defined, but I take the expression to mean in this context planning authorities) to have regard to the possible polluting effects of development, and to take steps to prevent such pollution.
BARONESS WHITE: If the noble Baroness, Lady White, will excuse my interrupting, I might be able to make it a little clearer to her and to the noble Viscount, Lord Amory. It does not mean in the first part only planning authorities. I have taken the phrase from the Countryside Act.
"every Minister, government department and public body."
If it is more acceptable to spell it out in that form I do not mind.
BARONESS YOUNG: I thank the noble Baroness, Lady White, for that clarification. To return to the first part of this clause, it requires that public authorities or bodies shall have regard to the possible polluting effects of a development. We have looked at this carefully and I feel bound to point out that there could be real practical difficulties arising from this. If I may give one example, an individual opposed to the decision of

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an authority could have a very broad locus for criticising and challenging the decision of the authority on planning applications. It would be very difficult for an authority to prove that it had taken every practicable step towards the avoidance or mitigation of pollution. I think that this point was recognised by the noble Baroness, Lady White. It would be open to objectors to frustrate and delay decisions to a substantial extent, and to do so at a time when there is considerable pressure to improve waste disposal facilities.
Turning to the second half of the proposed new clause, I should like to expand a little the points made by the noble Viscount, Lord Amory. It seeks to impose a duty on a local planning authority to obtain information about the pollutant effect of a proposed development and, where necessary, to attach appropriate conditions to any consent given. It is these which could present greater difficulties. The duty of a local planning authority in deciding on planning applications is set out in Section 29 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1971. The authority is required to have regard to the provisions of the development plan, so far as is material to the application, and to any other material considerations, which the courts have interpreted to mean planning considerations. The authority may grant planning permission either unconditionally or subject to such conditions as it thinks fit, or refuse permission. The duties and powers are thus expressed in broad general terms. Local planning authorities are responsible for assembling any information they need to enable them to determine the application and they have power to require the applicant to supply any information they need.
We are all particularly conscious of the problem of pollution, not only because we, as a Committee, are considering this Bill, but also, and as has been said, because this is a matter of growing concern to the public at large. But I am not sure that it would be desirable to single out pollution for special attention. After all, there are many other issues that local planning authorities must consider—traffic and transportation, the effect of development on services, the need to preserve buildings or areas of architectural or historic importance, the protection of the countryside—
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in coming to a planning decision. Moreover, a duty to impose conditions would be inconsistent with the discretion afforded to planning authorities under the 1971 Act generally.
My Department gives advice to local planning authorities from time to time by circular about the exercise of their existing responsibilities in relation to particular topics. For example, Circular 10/73 gave advice on planning and noise; and I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady White, that not all people think of noise as being a polluting factor although of course it is included in this Bill. Guidance is being prepared on planning and clean air, including guidance about the need for information and about sources of advice. We know that many authorities make full use of their planning powers in this way to deal with pollution aspects, but this is rather different from laying a duty on a local planning authority.
I think we all hope that as a result of local government reorganisation there will be established not only larger but also more powerful authorities. I believe that authorities are now establishing committees with responsibilities to consider matters pertaining to planning and the environment, and not merely the more narrowly defined land use planning considerations which were the responsibility of former planning committees. It is always a real point for consideration how far Central Government should go in laying detailed duties on local authorities at a lime like the present, when new and stronger authorities have been established. It is open to those authorities to consider the matters which are the subject of the Amendment if they wish. I think that the noble Viscount, Lord Amory, is right in saying that they will take them into account.
I feel it may be helpful to the Committee also to say how we anticipate that the planning powers in this Bill will be exercised. Planning permission pertaining to waste disposal operations will be a matter reserved to county councils in England. We propose, after the Bill has received the Royal Assent, to make an order under the Local Government Act to this effect, and in the meantime we are in full consultation with the local

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authority associations and the London boroughs about how all this will be worked out.
After what I have said it may seem that I am trying to damn this new clause completely, but I have advanced these arguments because I think it only fair that the Committee should recognise that there are real difficulties in the way of implementing the clause as it stands. But I meant what I said at the beginning, that we are sympathetic to its intention. I agree with my noble friend Lord Amory that we need—and there would be a great deal to be said for it—a general declaration of intent. As I said on Second Reading, and as I meant, we wish to look at all Amendments as sympathetically as we can and to meet the points where possible. I am therefore prepared to look at this Amendment and consider it to see whether at a later stage in the proceedings we can introduce an Amendment of our own which would take in at any rate this declaration of intent which I believe is the spirit behind the Amendment. I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady White, will feel that she is able to accept my assurance on this point.
LORD MOLSON: I should like to say how much I welcome the speech of my noble friend Lady Young and the spirit in which she has approached this matter. I entirely agree that it is extraordinarily difficult to impose a duty on a local authority which, under the planning legislation, is bound to exercise its discretion. It is almost impossible to reconcile a mandatory instruction by Parliament with the duty of a local authority to exercise its discretion. I have therefore felt that the new clause in its present form would prove almost impossible to work. As has been said, it is in two parts. The first part, as the noble Baroness, Lady White, has said, is in considerable measure similar to the important declaratory statement in the Countryside Act, that all Government Departments and local authorities are to bear in mind the preservation of the beauty of the countryside. I remember being surprised when a Government Department, and still more the Parliamentary draftsman, agreed to some general declaration of that kind. It is not generally in the tradition of statutes, which are nearly always couched in obscure, but definite, terms. But it was
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a most valuable precedent; and it has done a great deal to improve the general planning of the countryside. I think, therefore, that it should be possible to follow that wise precedent, which has worked extremely well, and for the Government at a later stage to introduce an Amendment rather on the same lines.
What I should like to ask my noble friend the Minister is whether she is satisfied that the local authorities have the power, and will be able effectively to exercise the power, to find out in advance whether effluents from some new development are going to be harmful to the environment. What I should wish this clause to do would be to ensure the pollution was prevented in advance, instead of an attempt being made to rectify it after it has taken place.
We are all aware that local authorities are confronted with an extraordinarily difficult situation when a builder, for example, builds a house or erects some building which is a breach of the planning permission given or of conditions attached to it. The local authority then finds itself in the extremely embarrassing position of having to decide whether to exercise its statutory right to insist upon the building being demolished and imposing a very heavy—perhaps a disproportionately heavy—penalty upon the person who has been guilty of breaking the planning permission. If the person concerned happens to be a man without much money, public sympathy will be for him if the local authority insists upon it being demolished; and if, in a place where there is a shortage of housing, the building is somebody else's house, then the local authority will find public opinion too strongly against it to insist on the legal remedy even being effective. I remember a case rather of that kind which occurred in my own constituency when I was in another place.
Therefore I would ask my noble friend Lady Young to consider whether it would be possible not only to incorporate in this clause the general declaration to which she has rather indicated she would be sympathetic but to make sure that local planning authorities can obtain in practice, as well as in theory, the information which is necessary to make sure that pollution does not take place. I should be very glad also if some Penalty

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could attach if the applicant for the planning permission does not carry out the conditions which have been imposed. It is, I think, of the utmost importance when we are dealing with this matter to try to ensure that pollution is prevented and not merely rectified after it has taken place.
4.56 p.m.
BARONESS WHITE: I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Young, for spelling out the reasons why she finds this particular clause difficult; and I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Molson, who has great experience in these matters, for his general support for such a clause, and particularly for having seized upon what I regard as one of the crucial matters, the position of the planning authorities; because unless they look into these matters adequately, then, as the noble Lord, Lord Molson, said, all one can do is to try to remedy the situation that has arisen which is often so much more difficult than to prevent it, provided that one looks at it early enough in the chain of events.
I should be quite happy if the Government were to draft some variant of this clause, provided that any draft they produce does not leave out any essential points. For example, I would happily accept the suggestion of the noble Viscount, Lord Amory, that one should use the word "reasonable" rather than "practicable": I see his point entirely. Similarly, I see the point about mandatory instructions to planning authorities, which would cut across the philosophy that they use their discretion. That, too, could be accommodated, I think, if, instead of saying "where necessary", one said "where it"—the planning authority —"thinks fit". I was rather depressed by the noble Baroness's somewhat negative general attitude, until she reached the penultimate paragraph of her brief, putting forward all the reasons why one should not say these things. I am not quite as convinced as the noble Baroness appears to be as to the value of circulars —perhaps "value" is not quite the right word, because of course circulars are valuable; but at any rate they do not always have as much effect as one would wish, particularly in present circumstances.
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The noble Baroness spoke of the larger authorities. But surely she is aware that under the Local Government Act there are going to be a great many more small planning authorities; and one of the problems resulting from that Act is that because the number of planning authorities in the country is being increased, there is an acute shortage of staff. This makes it all the more necessary, if we are genuinely concerned about pollution, that we should draw attention to it, because otherwise this is just the kind of thing a busy officer will not bother about. He will say, "There are various things that I have to look at, and we must take a chance on pollution."
I am afraid that a good deal of the argument put forward by the noble Baroness did not seem to me by any means to be fully convincing. For example, she said that there might be other authorities to which some of these references might be more appropriate. Well, there is nothing to prevent the other authorities from carrying out their duties. But this Bill is about pollution, and it appears to me therefore that we are quite properly concerned with the public bodies. As I said, if it were desired to put in the words used in the Countryside Act, I should be quite agreeable to that; but certainly the planning authorities should have their attention drawn to this special duty.
As the noble Baroness was good enough to suggest that the Government would be prepared to put down a variant of this clause, I think it would be only proper to ask leave to withdraw my Amendment at this stage and see what the Government alternative might be. I hope that it will be acceptable, but if it is not, I hope that it will be put down in sufficient time to allow us to suggest a further version. In the circumstances, I shall be most happy to accept the offer made by the noble Baroness.
LORD MERRIVALE: Before the noble Baroness withdraws her Amendment, may I take this opportunity of asking my noble friend Lady Young whether it is within the ambit of this Bill to incorporate a clause permitting consideration of the diminution of pollution at the planning stage? As I understand the Bill at the moment, it mainly deals with the disposal of waste, licensing for the disposal of controlled

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waste, and so forth. The Bill also deals with regional plans and it also says in the Title that it is,
"An Act to make further provison with respect to waste disposal, water pollution, noise, atmospheric pollution and injurious substances; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid."
Although I agree with my noble friend Lord Molson that at the planning stage it may be feasible and practicable to do away with an increase of pollution, I am not sure whether it comes within the ambit of this Bill.
BARONESS YOUNG: Of course we shall read very carefully all the suggestions made about drafting Amendments to this clause. This is a matter we must study, and I am glad that the noble Baroness, Lady White, has recognised that we are prepared to consider this general declaration of intent. I do not take her view about the new planning authorities. I find it very difficult to believe that in the context of present-day public opinion on pollution, any officer or committee would not consider, on a matter referring to waste disposal undertakings of one sort or another, whether or not this could have a possible polluting effect. I think this is something which everybody would consider. Furthermore, one must believe, if one believes in the value of local government, that one should give these new authorities the opportunity to exercise their right of decision-making in these matters. Perhaps I should make it clear, in case there should be any misunderstanding about planning powers, that in the English counties the planning powers in connection with waste disposal will rest with the counties and not with the districts. In Wales and Scotland they will all be in the districts. So the situation is, as it were, in parallel, though not precisely the same; and when we are talking about planning powers, we are talking about those at county level.
Perhaps I should say, in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Molson, that we see three stages in this complete operation. The first is the establishing of a waste disposal plan by the new waste disposal authorities, and this will be an overall plan for the disposal of waste in their area. Then there will be the procedure for detailed planning permission—for example, for an incinerator, a tip
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or whatever it might be. In addition to that, there would be the licensing of the individual waste disposal operator; and it is at that stage that all the matters concerned with the effects of effluents—and particularly any which would be toxic or noxious in any way—would be considered. So I think I can give an assurance, in so far as one can ever give an assurance about something which may happen in the future, that we have done our best to cover the particular points raised.
I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Merrivale, will accept, in the context of what I have said, that although there will not necessarily be a diminution in the amount of waste to be disposed of—because in our society it is likely to increase—the intention behind the Bill is that the way in which it is disposed of should be more effective and efficient than has been the case in the past.
LORD HENLEY: May I just say that it might be helpful to the two noble Baroness, in trying to find suitable words of a declaratory nature with regard to pollution, if the noble Baroness, Lady White, had remembered the suggestion of her noble friend Lord Kennet that the Bill should be called "Control of Pollution Bill". Your Lordships may remember that the Title of the Bill has been postponed, and I hope that when we come to deal with that the noble Baroness will move an Amendment to that effect.
BARONESS WHITE: If the noble Lord, Lord Henley, had had sufficient time to read to the very end of the Amendments, he would have observed that Amendment No. 212, standing in the name of my noble friend Lord Garns-worthy and I, suggests that the Title should be changed from "Protection of the Environment" to "Environmental Pollution Control".
LORD HAWKE: Before the noble Baroness withdraws her Amendment, should like to ask my noble friend whether, when she is considering a declaratory clause to replace this one, she will consider very carefully the pollution of air. I know people who suffer very severely from the pollution of air—to wit, the aroma coming from a very large herd of very dirty pigs. What I think we must try to do is to

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work out some form of declaration which will involve the consideration of stench, while at the same time not making it impossible to grow bacon in this country.
VISCOUNT AMORY: May I suggest to my noble friend that I hope we shall not be too precipitate in this—I am very fond of the smell of pigs!
BARONESS WHITE: I beg leave to withdraw this Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 1 [Arrangements for disposing of controlled waste]:
5.9 p.m.
LORD GARNSWORTHY LORD GARNSWORTHY moved Amendment No. 2:
Page 1, line 9, leave out ("and other persons").
The noble Lord said: Clause 1 is concerned with arrangements for disposing of controlled waste. It reads:
"It shall be the duty of each disposal authority to ensure that the arrangements made by the authority and other persons for the disposal of waste are adequate for the purpose of disposing of all controlled waste which becomes situated in its area…"
In other words, it would seem to place a duty upon waste disposal authorities to ensure that satisfactory arrangements are made either by the authority itself or by other operators—and the noble Baroness referred a few moments ago to private operators—for the disposal of all controlled waste in their areas. I should like to ask the noble Baroness whether that is intended and, if so, whether it is right and proper that a disposal authority should have a duty to ensure that other persons, including private operators, should have adequate means to dispose of their waste. If the reply is, "Yes", then it certainly goes beyond the issue of control that is, to say, the control powers that will extend as far as private operators are concerned or as far as producers of waste are concerned. Control should quite properly be exercised by local authorities. It seems that the clause as worded would place the primary responsibility for dealing with waste from the undertaking which produces it (or the private operator) on to the local authority. The primary responsibility should surely rest in the first instance on the producer
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—or, if there is a private operator, on the private operator—leaving the authority itself with the duties of control and enforcement in so far as this type of waste material is concerned. The matter is of some concern to one of the local authority associations and I think it is desirable that we should get the position clear at the outset of our proceedings.
LORD MERRIVALE: I hope that my noble friend will not accede to the noble Lord's request because in his opening remarks the noble Lord stressed, quite rightly, that the arrangements that were made by the authority should be adequate. I wonder whether, if his Amendment were accepted, they would be adequate. Surely dispersal arrangements would be incomplete. It seems to me that the successful implementation of disposal authority plans would be very much at risk if no other persons could be brought in. I should have thought that co-operation and consultation with these other persons, private operators and industry, was essential and that the Government were quite right to bring in these words, "other persons".
LORD HAWKE: I have raised this point in your Lordships' House at intervals over a number of years. The phrase "other persons" brings in a very important point. I have come to the conclusion that the reason why people dump rubbish in the countryside is because the arrangements for dumping it anywhere else are inadequate. One can understand that ordinary dustmen do not have space on their vehicles for taking large items of rubbish. Therefore the local authority say, "Telephone us and we will provide you with a special collection." When I asked a local authority how soon they could manage that they said, "We can do it in about four weeks' time."
Consider the case of a person who moves into a small house or buys some new furniture or bedding, and wants to get rid of the old. What does he do? He telephones the local authority and they say, "We can give you a collection in a month's time". Meanwhile, the furniture is cluttering up the small house —it may he a flat and the person may not even have a garden. So what does he do? He takes his car one dark night and pops the furniture over my hedge or somebody else's hedge as the path of least resistance. The local authorities

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have at long last realised that this is a grave fault in their collection system and have created various dumps to which private people can take their waste. I happened to walk around last Sunday afternoon one of the places which is a favourite dumping ground on the outskirts of Crawley New Town. There was a notice saying, "Please do not dump here; there is a dump at so-and-so". But the dump at "so-and-so" happened to be 12 miles away. That was a fat lot of use!
The other point is that the local authority charges tradesmen of any sort for the disposal of their rubbish. I think this is entirely wrong and leads to a great deal of dumping. The small decorator or garage owner, sooner than pay charges for having rubbish taken away, go out on a dark night, and we see the results of their labours in Sussex lanes wherever there is a stream or a gap in the roadside. It is important that the final authority should see that there are proper arrangements for the disposal of waste by other persons. I have hoped for a long time that the new authority will be more knowing and sympathetic in providing proper dumps nearer to the centres of population where the waste originates.
5.16 p.m.
BARONESS YOUNG: Perhaps it would be helpful if I answered first of all the points that have been made by my noble friend Lord Hawke. He has pointed to a real difficulty that a great many people have experienced and of which they are aware—unsightly dumping of rubbish in totally unsuitable places. As he rightly pointed out, the first clause of this Bill confers a duty on the waste disposal authority to dispose of such rubbish, or to make arrangements for the disposal of such rubbish, in its area. It will therefore be an offence to dump rubbish anywhere but in those places where it has been agreed that it should be left. It will be a matter for the individual authority to make whatever arrangements, if any, about charging it thinks fit.
We hope that this Bill will go a long way to solving what I think everybody regards as very much a twentieth century nuisance of unsightly rubbish dumped in the wrong place. We consider, not only for this reason but for the reason advanced by my noble friend Lord Merrivale, that
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the waste disposal authority, which will be the county council, in conjunction with the collection authorities, who will be the district authorities, will continue to have the function of dealing with household and domestic refuse. We also need the support of private industry to enable the disposal authority to take into account all the various amounts of non-domestic waste which will need to be disposed of in drawing up its overall plan. Of course amounts and types of waste will vary from place to place in the country, but we are quite clear that it will be the duty of the authority to draw up the plans and to state where, under its planning and licensing stipulations, either tipping, incineration or any other form of disposal shall take place.
But there are so many problems with commercial and industrial waste that there will need to be the greatest co-operation with private industry in finding suitable ways of disposing of it and of controlling it. Indeed, many private firms are now planning treatment facilities on a national scale, both for reclaiming chemicals and treating chemicals to become harmless sludge which can then be used for land reclamation. All this involves considerable capital investment. Rather than exclude the private disposal industry we consider that we shall, if anything, need to strengthen the relationship and the co-operation between the waste disposal authorities and the private sector.
I explain this because I think it is very necessary to realise, when one is considering this Bill as a whole, that we are not talking simply about domestic refuse, but are talking about all types of disposal, industrial wastes as well as wastes from contractors; and this covers all waste that is produced by industry, commerce, or domestic households. We hope and believe that we have provided within this Bill a statutory framework for a better basis of planning for both the public and private sector alike. That is why I cannot accept this Amendment.
LORD GARNSWORTHY: I do not want to press this Amendment this evening, and I am grateful to the noble Baroness for what she has said. The Amendment is intended to go some way towards meeting the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Molson, when lie was

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speaking on the earlier Amendment. I fully appreciate what the noble Lords, Lord Merrivale and Lord Hawke, have said—and I take the point made by the noble Baroness that we are dealing not only with domestic waste but with all waste—but the Bill does little to bring any kind of pressure on those who produce waste to reduce the production of that waste, and I think this is important. I hope that this aspect may perhaps be looked at. I listened with very great interest to what the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, had to say about people dumping rubbish by the roadside or throwing it over the hedge. I do not think this Bill is likely to make a very great deal of difference to people who engage in that kind of activity. This is a matter of seeing that such people are caught, taken to court and dealt with severely, so that they are taught a very necessary lesson.
LORD HAWKE: Somebody in my locality was once taken to court because he happened to dump an armchair, and down in the cleft a letter addressed to him was found. But otherwise, nobody is ever going to get caught. My point is that if there is a place where these people can go, within reasonable reach of their homes, we can expect them to use it.
LORD GARNSWORTHY: I take the noble Lord's point—indeed, I had intended to come to it. I realise that armchairs will be dumped, and occasionally there will be some evidence. But the noble Lord is not correct, I think, in suggesting that these people are not caught. They are caught from time to time, and some courts are inflicting much heavier penalties than they used to do. I think there might be a great deal more activity in checking up on these people. The noble Lord talks about difficulty in finding a site near at hand. Where I live there is a controlled tip, not too far away, where people can take waste and dump it quite easily. There is, at equal distance, a beautiful little wood, and some people prefer to take their waste to the wood and dump it rather than take it to the controlled tip.
LORD CRAIGTON: Is the noble Lord aware that in Edinburgh the citizens just put their old furniture downstairs on the pavement, and the local authority take it away?
LORD GARNSWORTHY: It seems to me that the complaint of the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, could be dealt with if local authorities made more reasonable provision for rubbish disposal. I think this Bill will encourage them to do it. I do not think it is going to cure the kind of person who has no love of the countryside and who takes a car and dumps it, or who takes an old bed and dumps it. At the wood to which I referred there are people who even take grass cuttings down and dump them, as well as building materials and all kinds of things. One does ask: ought the local authority to be made responsible for the producer of waste, the industrial producer of waste? Is not control sufficient in that regard? I ask that more attention might be paid to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Molson, because it is one of some considerable substance. I should like to think that the matter will be looked at further. However, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for what she has had to say. As I said, I have no intention of pressing the Amendment this evening, and with the Committee's permission I will withdraw it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
5.24 p.m.
LORD STOW HILL LORD STOW HILL moved Amendment No. 3:
Page 1, line 12, leave out ("and") and insert ("or which").
The noble and learned Lord said: This is a massive Bill which deals with matters of great public importance, and I do not apprehend that your Lordships would greatly welcome lengthy discussions on what are really drafting points. However, perhaps it is our duty to examine the language which Parliamentary Counsel has chosen with a view to avoiding obscurity so far as it can be removed, and achieving precision. Your Lordships may think that I do not trespass unnecessarily on the time of the Committee if I move this Amendment quite shortly.
The point is this. In Clause 1, controlled waste is referred to as,
"waste which becomes situated in its area…and is likely to become so situated".
If I refer, in ordinary parlance, to an object which is A and B, I should have thought that I would be taken to be referring to one object of which it could

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be predicated that it has two characteristics. If one considers a single parcel of garbage, it is difficult to suppose that that single parcel of garbage is both "situated in an area" and "is likely to become situated in an area." I suppose, by a process of refined logic, one could arrive at the conclusion that the reference is to a two-phase proceeding: one parcel of garbage is first likely to become situated; then the second phase is that either that parcel of garbage, or some other, becomes so situated. That is the dilemma which I faced when I read this language. I submit to your Lordships that it would be much easier to understand, and it would read much more naturally and tidily, if one struck out the word "and" and substituted the words "or which". Then controlled waste would be "waste which becomes situated in its area…or which is likely to become so situated." I beg to move.
LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL: May I start by saying that naturally I welcome the purpose underlying the noble Lord's Amendment. Anything that makes a Bill easier to understand is certainly going to be welcomed by non-lawyers, like myself. Furthermore, we can applaud the noble Lord's intention so far as the underlying purpose of what he wants to clarify is concerned, and also in that we want to cover waste which is in the area and which is imported into the area.
I am one of the least suitable people in your Lordships' House to start indulging in semantic arguments with the noble Lord, Lord Stow Hill. He mentioned the Parliamentary Counsel and I must do the same. We contend that the result achieved by the present wording is what the noble Lord wishes; and that if this should be unclear, then the Department is indeed in sympathy with the spirit of the noble Lord's Amendment. But Parliamentary Counsel has pointed out that the noble Lord's drafting is defective, and its effect would be to preclude a disposal authority from taking account of both sorts of waste in one plan. However, Counsel has made some suggestions which he feels would meet the noble Lord's point, although he has not finally made up his mind on this one at the moment. Therefore, we should like to consider the noble Lord's suggestion.
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I may at the same time point out that in this case a similar Amendment would probably be required after the "and" in Clause 2, page 1, line 18. I hope that in these circumstances we shall succeed in satisfying the noble Lord in the long run.
LORD STOW HILL: I am very much indebted to the Minister for what he has said. I think the discussion was useful, and I hope your Lordships will agree that it was brief. I beg to ask the permission of the Committee for leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clause 2 [Preparation and revision of waste disposal plans]:
5.30 p.m.
LORD CRAIGTON LORD CRAIGTON moved Amendment No. 4:
Page 1, line 18, after ("of") insert ("and reclaiming").
The noble Lord said: I believe it would be for the convenience of your Lordships if we could discuss on this occasion my Amendment No. 4 with my Amendment No. 38, and also at the same time Amendments Nos. 5 and 7 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady White, and her noble friends. When I read this Bill for the first and the second time—I am referring to Part I—it seemed to me that it was a Bill about disposal as it is commonly understood. I know that in paragraph (e) of subsection (2) of this clause there is a mention of reclamation as part of the plan. But at the moment it is not a Bill really about anything other than disposal as it is understood.
We are moving from a period of plenty into a period of shortage and, with the inevitably increased costs, the use of reclaimed waste will become more and more worth while. Looking ahead, I can conceive the disposal authorities finding it not only in their interest but their duty to reclaim as much refuse and to re-use as much refuse as possible. So I put down this Amendment because I wanted, as it were, Part I of the Bill to change direction by strengthening and underlying the duty of reclamation and re-use, even though I know that within Parliamentary drafting, "reclamation" is part of "disposal".
I should like briefly to get on the Record why I put down Amendment No. 38 which refers to the kinds and quantities of waste which may be dealt with. I wanted reference to the kinds and quantities of waste which "shall be disposed of or reclaimed". I felt that in granting a disposal licence this may be very important in the national interest, and that a person asking for a licence might be interested in one particular product which he was reclaiming but there might be other products which, without some direction, would be lost. So I felt that the phrase "may be dealt with" had neither the teeth nor the direction of my suggested words. Before I sit down I must say that, since I put down my Amendment No. 4, the noble Baroness opposite and her noble friends have put down an Amendment which I think gives very much the effect of what I should like to see. So I have at this stage no intention of pressing Amendment No. 4. So far as No. 38 is concerned, whatever the outcome of these Amendments, I would leave it to my noble friend Lady Young to put down an Amendment at a later stage if she thought that my Amendment was worth while.
5.33 p.m.
LORD SAINSBURY: If it is in order, I should like to address my few remarks to Amendment No. 5 which stands in the name of my noble friends Lady White and Lord Garnsworthy, and myself suitably last. In my opinion the Amendment aims to provide Encouragement—
LORD MOLSON: If I may intervene, is it the intention that Amendment No. 5 should be discussed at the same time as No. 4?
LORD SAINSBURY: I thought that that had been agreed. The Amendment aims to encourage the disposal authorities to regard waste collection, disposal and re-cycling as parts of the same problem. What is needed, in my opinion, is an integrated effort. When I spoke during Second Reading I mentioned that several local authorities in Sweden were successfully using such waste products for heating homes and offices. I should now like to move much nearer home and refer to a G.L.C. plant at Edmonton which burns unsorted waste collected in an area inhabited by about 1 million people. This plant produces electricity,
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I understand, which is fed into the national grid. I happen to know that the noble Baroness, Lady Young, has more practical experience than I have. In fact, I believe she has actually visited the plant.
The plant has not been, I admit, in operation for a very long time. Also it is only frank to mention that it had some teething troubles. But it is now regarded, I am told, as very worth while and as a viable project. What has been a great handicap in the past is the question of sorting waste, and this plant can use unsorted waste. I believe, particularly in the light of the Statement we heard earlier this afternoon, that efforts of this kind must be very much encouraged; that this must be done on a much wider scale, and that we can use to great effect the potential resources of this waste. Therefore, I strongly support my noble friends in this Amendment.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: I also strongly support my noble friend's Amendment and other Amendments related to this question. May I point out that there is in this country to-day a firm who are importing waste from the Continent to make use of it here for industrial purposes. I think that the fact that we are even importing waste (I can give noble Lords the name of the firm if they wish) adds importance to the real need to reclaim waste and conserve all our own waste that can be used commercially. Therefore, I strongly support this Amendment.
LORD LEATHERLAND: The noble Viscount, Lord Amory, rose when I did and I very willingly give way to him, if he wishes.
VISCOUNT AMORY: I thank the noble Lord, Lord Leatherland. My intervention will be very brief indeed. It is really to support what the noble Lord, Lord Sainsbury, said in general about the importance of reclamation. There is no question about it at all. We must give a great deal more attention to this matter, and I have no doubt it will be given. I myself always feel slightly guilty when I tip my refuse into one container. Even without any knowledge of what is reclaimable and what is not, I should be entirely prepared to take a little trouble if only I knew, and to separate my refuse into what is reclaimable and what is not,

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in two separate containers. Unfortunately, one does not know what is reclaimable. I did this once on my own to see what might be reclaimable, and when I looked into what I had separated as reclaimable I was not bursting with enthusiasm at the prospect of seeing it back again in some other form; indeed, I suppose one would not recognise it. I was glad that my noble friend Lord Craigton, in dealing with this subject said that on consideration he preferred Amendment No. 5 to Amendment No. 4. So do I. I think Amendment No. 4 is a little too specific and Amendment No. 5 seems to me to deal with the matter in just the way I thought was sensible. I look forward to hearing what the noble Baroness, Lady White, has to say, and also my noble friend Lady Young.
LORD HAWKE: I heartily agree with the noble Lord, Lord Sainsbury. While he was speaking I could see on the Front Bench, sitting next to the noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, the late Lord Morrison, of Tottenham. He used to sit there, and I feel sure he would have given us a wonderful disquisition on his waste reclamation plant in the Borough of Tottenham and the nourishing properties of "Tottenham Pud", which was a most valuable product during the War and just after.
As one who skims through the American Press (or part of it) most days I keep coming upon these questions of reclamation. They are making great progress in re-cycling things in America and we really must do a little more about it here. Some time ago when there was a bit of a recession in the heavy industries in this country I suggested, through a Question to Her Majesty's Government, that they might like to place an order for a few of these reclamation plants with a view to letting them out to local authorities. I cannot remember the exact words of the Answer, but of course it was a dusty one. It would have been useful if they had taken my advice because the unemployed could have been put to work and we should now have these plants. Nobody so far has mentioned paper, but at this moment we are still not—
BARONESS WHITE: If I may interrupt the noble Lord for a moment, by agree
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ment we were hoping to have a separate debate on paper, on which there are a number of Amendments.
LORD HAWKE: In that event I shall not say anything more.
LORD MERRIVALE: This is a highly important issue, but it is also an emotional one, and I wondering whether the Amendment standing in the name of the noble Baroness, to which a number of noble Lords have given preference, is really necessary, for subsection (2)(e) of Clause 28 requires a disposal authority in its plan to include reclamation as a method of waste disposal. I presume that to do so the disposal authority will need to look into the practicability of reclamation. At first sight re-cycling is both sensible and attractive, but whether it is practicable in a number of cases is quite another matter.
I should like to confine my remarks to that aspect. I think the practicability must be based on a properly organised survey, and a disposal authority, particularly in the early stages of its existence, would, I should imagine, not be equipped with adequate resources successfully to undertake the necessary investigation. To noble Lords who may think that I am being unreasonable in my belief that the disposal authorities will not be in a position to inquire fully into the practicability and to carry out the necessary detailed investigations, may I draw the attention of the Committee to what is already being done by industry, which I think is relevant, and also to the work that is involved in reclamation and re-cycling. Already in 1969 industry was re-cycling a considerable proportion of the metals it used. In that year the total value of the copper, lead, tin, aluminium and zinc recovered was £271 million—a not insignificant amount. If one also bears in mind the considerable quantities of waste paper, rubber, some plastics and cullet which were re-used, I think one can see that this matter is already being carefully looked into.
To mention the last product—the cullet which is used in the glass-making industry—the conclusions and recommendations alone on re-cycling contained in the Report of the Glass Industry Liaison Working Party with Government Departments, of which I have a

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copy in my hand, show up the complexities inherent in plans to re-cycle waste materials. To quote but three passages from this Report will, I think, prove the point I am making. The Report says:
"We suggest that the industry initiates research into developing a specification that will enable larger quantities of cullet to be used."
It then says:
"Research in the United States and limited use in the United Kingdom indicates that there are potential markets for cullet other than in glass making."
The Liaison Working Party go on to recommend that the Glass Manufacturing Federation should set up a re-cycling advisory bureau to co-ordinate and disseminate information on re-cycling. That shows that this is a complex and highly specialised business, and I think the authorities are not properly equipped to carry it on.
The Report also takes into account two gaps in the re-cycling chain; namely, the difficulty of purchase of a sufficiently high standard of cullet and the difficulty of supply. As I have said before, if one looks at this overall aspect of this one industry one can see how difficult the problem is. In the case of this industry the conclusion reached was that it was essential that there should be a liaison between the Government Department concerned and the research institutions responsible for such development, and the glass industry. The fact that this is a highly complex problem is therefore highlighted.
5.49 p.m.
LORD LEATHERLAND: I am sorry to have to say that I felt the noble Lord, Lord Merrivale, was making excuses in advance for disposal authorities not doing as much as we expect them to do in the way of reclamation. My noble friend Lord Sainsbury drew attention to the fact that the gigantic destructor plant at Edmonton is going to feed electric current into the national grid. There is really nothing new about this kind of activity. I remember well over fifty years ago in Birmingham one of our destructor plants had a series of steam pipes from the furnaces where the refuse was burnt to the local electricity generating station across the way. That was a boon to the electricity generating station and it was a financial boon to the ratepayers of that
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city I learned with surprise that the question of waste paper was going to be excluded from the discussion on Amendment No. 5 for I had intended to say something about it, but I must await my turn in patience.
"Re-cycling" has become almost as fashionable a term as "conservation"; but I do not think we need to be mesmerised by the magic of words. There is nothing really new about re-cycling; we have had it with us for a long time. But I think that in the present circumstances the need for paying more attention to the re-cycling of waste materials is almost as important as it was during the days of the two World Wars. It is no longer just a minor matter of local government administration. It has to be lifted to the level of national economic necessity.
At the moment, we have an adverse trade balance which last month was £270 million; it was over £370 million in the month before that. We know that we shall have an adverse trade balance next year of perhaps £1,500 million—probably more. At the same time, the prices of all the raw materials we have to buy in the markets of the world are soaring: copper has doubled in price in the past year, lead has doubled in price, tin has doubled in price, zinc has risen by between three and four times during the past year and rubber is now at the highest peak that many of us can remember. The price of paper has been rising consistently over recent years, and we are faced with a further 20 per cent. increase from January 1 next. Some materials are in a state of actual physical shortage. We have to adjust ourselves to what is in the nature of a siege economy. I do not want those two words to be taken too literally, but the atmosphere in which we have to operate during the next few years is certainly going to be one where many raw materials are either scarce, or are almost unobtainable because of price.
I do not want to exaggerate the situation. Reclamation is already with us in a very big way, and as the noble Lord has said, a great deal of it is carried out by private commercial firms. Forty-two per cent. of the copper we use has been recycled; over 60 per cent. of the lead, 50 per cent. of the iron and steel, 20 per cent. of the aluminium and 18 per cent. of the tin that we use. But is enough

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being done? I do not think it is. This is where we have to get the local authorities to undertake more vigorous work on reclamation, and to do it in a mood of patriotic endeavour, not necessarily in a strict book-keeping sense.
We are at present throwing away far too many valuable materials. I have mentioned that only 18 per cent. of tin is being reclaimed. We throw into dustbins 300 million tin aerosols every year. Over 1,000 million beer, soft drink and fruit tins are similarly being thrown away each year. Why are we not recovering more of the tin and steel that these represent? I know it can be done. More than fifty years ago I was in charge of the Costing Department of the Birmingham Corporation Refuse Disposal Department. That was before I degenerated into journalism. We used to collect millions of tins each year, bale them and then export them to Germany where, with the aid of an electrical process, they separated the tin from the steel base and both the tin and the steel were subsequently used in German industry—and, for all we know, perhaps some of that steel came back to us in the shape of bombs during the last world war.
Our position is difficult now so far as the acquisition of raw materials is concerned. It is going to be more difficult still, because many of what we used to call the backward countries are now rapidly developing and will themselves be using many of the raw materials for which we and similar countries were previously the only market. Furthermore, the supply of some of these materials is not inexhaustible. That is why I feel that this is not a mere matter of municipal administration, not a mere matter of financial book-keeping to see whether it pays a certain council to reclaim certain materials which go to its tips or destructors. I think this is of very great importance in the national economy. The cost of this reclamation is only one facet of the problem. The other facet is our balance of payments. We must do something to improve our balance of payments, for that is vital to the future of this country.
5.55 p.m.
LORD GARNSWORTHY: I rise to speak to Amendment No. 7. This Amendment has been tabled in the hope
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that it may be helpful. It is making it the duty of a disposal authority to include in the plan it prepares information as to a number of things. Paragraph (g) reads:
"the estimated costs of the methods of disposal mentioned in the plans"
The Amendment would add:
"… any estimated benefits whether of a financial nature or otherwise which in the opinion of the disposal authority may accrue as a result of the reclamation of substance from the said waste".
It is quite clear that your Lordships are fairly unanimous in feeling that a great deal more needs to be done in reclaiming and re-cycling waste than has been the case. My noble friend Lord Leather-land has laid some emphasis on the fact that frequently opportunities for the reclamation of waste are lost because the public and industry generally are not aware of what is being discarded. I sometimes think that those who have persuaded us that we need not bother about empty bottles have done a very great deal to create the atmosphere where the public thinks that articles that could be used again can quite easily be thrown away. I think they carry a heavy responsibility for persuading us that we need not worry; we can put our empties in the dustbin, they will be dumped, and that is the end of it.
This Amendment seeks to make the point that it is not only a matter of the financial gain that might follow reclamation and re-cycling, but it takes a rather broader view. It is a question of whether as a nation we need the reclamation and re-cycling of waste. I would venture to suggest that the Amendment might well improve the present low level of waste recovery. In any case. I would suggest that the Government justifiably might be asked to give guidance to the collection and disposal authorities from time to time (I think it needs to apply to both of them) on the potential means of recycling waste. I hope that the Amendment will commend itself to the Government. I should like to think that they regard it as being helpful.
LORD REDCLIFFE-MAUD: May I raise a quick voice in the wilderness? I agree with everything that has been said about the importance of re-cycling and reclaiming. I believe the people of this

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country would entirely agree with everything that the noble Lord, Lord Leather-land, said, but we have had two instances mentioned, in Tottenham and Birmingham, where over the last years, long before the general public was aroused to the problems, locally elected authorities took an initiative and under their powers did what they could, in a way that I know the late Lord Morrison would have greatly approved. I would ask the Committee, before we spell it out in even greater detail, to consider what local authorities in our opinion must take account of and must give information about, and whether we cannot trust these local authorities, now that we have reformed local government, to do still better. I suggest that even though this Bill already spells it out, we should consider whether the local authorities are not really capable of sharing in our enthusiasm in the new move towards re-cycling and reclaiming, and doing some of these things for themselves.
VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN: I want just to support, anyway in principle, both Amendments 5 and 7, but I would draw attention to the brilliant work which has been done in the Government laboratory at Warren Springs, where they have a laboratory scale plant which does all the things we have been talking about. I thoroughly support it, and I think it should be pushed strongly. There is one other problem. I come from Scotland. Most of these plants are geared to an intake of something like a million people. In the whole of Scotland there are 5 million people, and the problem in Scotland is to induce small local authorities to collect their waste, properly separate it, and take it to a centre. That is a completely different problem from that existing—not that it should not be tackled; it should be—in the highly populated areas in England. I should like to support completely, in theory anyway and in spirit, both these Amendments.
6.1 p.m.
BARONESS YOUNG: I have listened with great interest to what I think we all regard as one of the most important debates we have had in Committee on this subject. Re-cycling was a matter raised by the majority of the noble Lords who spoke at Second Reading, and I went hack to read very carefully what they had said. We must consider our remarks to-day against the background
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of the very serious energy crisis which we are considering as a country. In principle, no one can be against recycling or reclamation of waste materials. The whole idea of recovering valuable products from otherwise discarded waste appeals to our ideas of thrift; but at a time such as we have at the moment of serious and growing concern about the long-term availability of many resources on a national and local scale, we should, as a matter of prudence, investigate thoroughly the possibility of effective and useful recovery of waste materials. Therefore, the Government's attitude is entirely favourable to re-cycling where this can be sensibly and usefully done. Indeed, as I indicated at Second Reading, there are over 1,000 firms involved in the reclamation business at present, recovering metals, waste paper, rubber, textiles, solvents and a wide range of other materials.
I was most interested to hear what my noble friend, Lord Merrivale, said about this. Not only did he confound us, but he indicated quite rightly what a very complex business this is. It is not something which is simple to do. Often the capital equipment required for it can be very expensive. I was very glad to hear from the noble Lord. Lord Redcliffe-Maud, what local authorities were doing. Lord Sainsbury mentioned Edmonton. My noble friend, Lord Strathcona, and I. visited the plant last week. It is a very impressive sight. I think I am right in saying that it takes the household refuse from a number of London boroughs. It is an incinerator. The ash is used for fill on roads. The metal objects are extracted by magnets, and the metal waste is sold. I think I am right in saying—it is rather a technical matter—that it generates enough electricity to light and heat a town about the size of Bath. One cannot help but be very impressed by this example of local authority work. It has had its difficulties, but it is now working very well. Of course, it is an extremely expensive proposition. I have not had the opportunity to visit the plant at Birmingham, or the one at Nottingham, which I believe as an experiment is heating part of its city by burning waste. They are all very good examples of local authority enterprise.
Having said that, I should say that we believe that more could and should be done to encourage the positive use of

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waste materials. We accept that this Bill can be made the vehicle for some of the necessary encouragement to do this. I said at Second Reading that there are two important proposals in the Bill which relate to re-cycling and reclamation. Under Clause 2(2)(e) the disposal authorities are required to consider the reclamation of waste substances in preparing their disposal plans. Under Clause 12(3)(c) they are given a very broad power to
"use, sell or otherwise dispose of the waste or anything produced from it",
which should enable them to do a great deal in the recovery field. A great deal of waste is now used for land reclamation. We should make a great mistake if we did not recognise that, apart from the value of disposing of refuse, this provides a great public service in that it brings back into use land which otherwise has no real value at all. On our visit to various disposal sites last week, we saw pictures of an area near Heathrow of between 39 and 40 acres which has been tipped with rubbish and is now in use at least for grazing purposes. Of course, such tipped land can be used afterwards as building land or as a public open space or playing fields.
We believe that the provisions already within the Bill are important. We accept, however, that it ought to be possible to strengthen and improve them. In view of the wide concern which has been expressed by noble Lords, we have ourselves been considering what more we could usefully do in the present Bill. We are not yet ready with our detailed Amendments, but I think it would be helpful to the Committee if I explained our general thinking on this subject. The main point is to ensure that the possibilities for reclaiming waste materials are properly examined and evaluated when the disposal of those wastes is under consideration. Too often waste materials from every kind of source are discarded and abandoned because no one has taken the trouble and effort to work out what could usefully and economically have been done with the wastes. What is needed is that responsible people should find out in detail what wastes are arising in their area and think out whether or not such materials could be used in a positive way. This is again the point that Lord Merri-
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vale was making when he said we need a thorough survey of the waste materials arising in an area.
As I said just now, Clause 2(2)(e) already requires a disposal authority to consider reclamation along with other methods of disposal in preparing their disposal plans, but we could consider laying a positive duty on them to keep in mind the scope for reclamation of waste materials situated in their areas and to investigate the possibilities for separate collection, or the separation of different waste materials with a view to the possible recovery of those which are useful. That is the kind of proposal which the noble Lord, Lord Craigton, and the noble Viscount, Lord Amory, had in mind in the remarks they made.
VISCOUNT AMORY: I wonder whether I could interrupt my noble friend for one moment at this point. I imagine that sorting is a formidable difficulty in many cases. Would it help much if householders or commercial concerns segregated their waste into different categories, or would that be too difficult? If it is desirable, would local authorities have the power to influence householders and commercial firms to do that?
BARONESS YOUNG: Some local authorities already ask people to separate waste paper, and they provide a container to do this. There is nothing to prevent any local authority from doing that at present.
LORD GARNS WORTHY: I wonder whether the noble Baroness has any idea how many local authorities—I realise it covers the country and it may be a big thing—collect waste paper and how many do not, because, to my knowledge, there has been a tremendous fall-off in this matter. I do not want to go into another debate, but the information could be very helpful.
BARONESS YOUNG: I do not in fact have the exact number of authorities who do it, but I will take steps to see whether I can get useful figures on this point. The noble Lord is quite right in saying that there has been a falling off. Of course, during the war householders were asked to separate all types of domestic waste, and it was a very acceptable thing in those circumstances to ask people to do so and then to go to the trouble of sorting it out. It is always difficult for a local authority

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to know how far it should be prepared to ask the residents and the commercial and industrial firms to sort out their waste and how far it is prepared to pay for different containers for them to put it in. All sorts of complicated matters are involved. It may well be that in the light of national circumstances public opinion will feel that this is something we should do, and local authorities will be prepared to make much greater efforts in this regard. But not only is there a question of making that acceptable to the public; there is the value of the product at the end. To get it they are going to some expense, and they would want to feel there is a use for it. I think it is perfectly true that whereas at certain times certain substances are wanted, in order to make it financially viable for a local authority to insist on this it must have a pretty steady market for the waste paper collected. I think this is something which can be done, and it is something which in the future must be looked at more thoroughly.
LORD LEATHERLAND: I wanted to try to answer the question which my noble friend Lord Garnsworthy put. There are about 400 local authorities in this country which do not deal separately with their waste paper.
BARONESS YOUNG: I thank the noble Lord. It is in fact 400 out of 1,300 local authorities, who in fact sort out the paper, and it is thought that about 350,000 tons of waste paper is collected.
LORD LEATHERLAND: And the mills want another 200,000 tons.
BARONESS YOUNG: As I was saying, we do believe there is in fact a need to investigate further the possibility of collection and separation of different kinds of waste. Such consideration would need to be undertaken jointly by the disposal authorities and the collection authorities, since both would need to be involved in schemes for recovery. The requirement might, therefore, be for the disposal authorities and the collection authorities to consult together on reclamation with such other persons as would seem appropriate. This of course would be a reference to industrialists who would use the waste products, because clearly there would need to be close consultation between the two.
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Apart from a general duty of this kind, we must also ensure that the local authorities have adequate powers to undertake recovery operations where appropriate. As I have indicated, Clause 12(3)(c) is already drawn in fairly wide terms, but we will certainly undertake to look further at whether any more detailed powers are desirable for such purposes as the generation of heat or electricity from waste, on which there are later Amendments. In view of the joint interest of collection and disposal authorities on recycling, we may need to look again at their respective responsibilities and powers and the interaction between them. Joint working would obviously be desirable in any integrated scheme for the collection or separation of particular wastes by the collection authorities, and their subsequent' treatment' by the disposal authorities. Most importantly, we should need to re-examine the allocation of costs and receipts between the collection and disposal authorities in respect of such arrangements. On this, too, there are later Amendments which we shall wish to consider. I think a point is made by the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, in Amendment No. 7 on this matter of costs.
I hope I have said enough to indicate our approach to this important problem of re-cycling and the Amendments that have been put down. I will at a later stage introduce Amendments on this matter which will seek to meet the points that have been raised in these various Amendments. I hope, therefore, that having had that assurance, noble Lords who have moved these Amendments will feel willing to withdraw them.
BARONESS WHITE: I am sure we are all extremely grateful to the noble Baroness for her reply and for her assurance that the Government are going to take this matter very seriously. After this debate. I think no one could be in any doubt that this is a matter of considerable concern. Although she is quite correct in saying that there is one reference in Clause 2(2)(e). and another very vague reference in Clause 12, I have before me a letter that I have received from someone who takes a close interest in these matters, who did not realise what Clause 12 embodied. He says:
"The only reference to recovery of materials in the environment Bill is in half a sentence

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buried in a sub-paragraph. It is woefully inadequate."
I feel that all of us—the noble Lord, Lord Craigton, and the rest of us who put down Amendments on this subject—were entirely justified in doing so in order to emphasise the great importance of this matter. I am very well aware that one has to face a difficult economic problem in relation to certain substances; for instance, plastics. You may try to re-cycle plastics, but very often the end product just is not worth the cost of re-cycling. There are other materials. I was very much interested in what the noble Lord, Lord Merrivale, said about glass. I understand from the speech made by the Under-Secretary in another place on November 22 that there are working parties on plastics, glass, paper and tin boxes. What I think is missing is some central point to which the individual local authorities could turn for advice, including technical advice and economic advice, on the best way of dealing with their own particular circumstances.
The noble Lord, Lord Merrivale, mentioned that the glass industry was of the opinion that there should be a recycling bureau. We have in the University College in Cardiff a very strong department on the re-cycling of waste, and we had a very interesting conference about a month ago, presided over by His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales, at which the discussion on re-cycling was one of the main parts. Many of us felt that there should be something of this nature, a waste resources board or whatever you like to call it, to which people could turn for advice. I understand there are such institutions in the United States and in Japan. The Government should take this seriously, though it would not necessarily come into this Bill, as a matter of policy when we are setting out on a new era in dealing with waste disposal.
BARONESS YOUNG: I wonder whether I may answer that point. I think it is a very real one. Along with the other proposals, we are considering the setting up of an organisation such as an advisory council, rather on equivalent lines to that we might have for noise. How its composition would be worked out is not clear at this stage, but clearly it would require
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people from central Government. from industry and possibly from universities. I think we have in mind the kind of suggestion the noble Baroness has made.
BARONESS WHITE: I am delighted to hear it. Whether an advisory council is the best way of doing it I am not sure. I think one needs an institution of some kind to bring together the work which is going on in many fields and in many universities. The noble Viscount, Lord Stonehaven, mentioned Warren Springs. A great deal is being done there; but it is at the moment rather scattered and unco-ordinated. Busy people in local authorities have a great deal to do. One would like them to be able to turn to a central point.
I was not terribly impressed with Lord Redcliffe-Maud's comments because, after all, one can count on the fingers of one hand the number of local authorities who are in fact doing what Edmonton and Nottingham are doing, for example, in the use of waste for heating. The mills really grind much too slowly. In our Amendment we suggest that local authorities, in carrying out the investigations which they are under an obligation under the Bill to carry out, should seek advice. I should have thought that that was the least one should expect them to do.
May I say one more word on the question of cost? I hope that in any central body which is established, whether an advisory council or research institute, or whatever it might be, this matter of costs can be carefully examined. It is not always economic at the present level. It is a chicken and egg situation. Some materials, if you re-cycle them in relatively small quantities, would not be an economic proposition. If, on the other hand, you could make the transition to a much larger quantity and reduce the cost by economies of scale, then you might get a much better demand for the materials, which would then he cheaper than the virgin raw materials which you would otherwise probably be importing from overseas. It would not be appropriate to go into the details of this.
I have had an interesting memorandum sent to me on this question. This is one of the most important points, because we shall not get adequate conservation of our resources unless we can solve some of the economic problems.

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This may be a place where Government assistance might he necessary and helpful in helping with the provision of plant, even on an experimental basis, to see whether we can break through this barrier of cost and the economies of scale.
We are most grateful to the noble Baroness for what she has said, and we shall await with intense interest the alternatives that she is proposing to put forward. We shall not move Amendment No. 5. I shall leave it to the noble Lord, Lord Craigton, who moved his Amendment No. 4.
LORD CRAIGTON: I listened with great care to what the Minister said. She said that she was going to strengthen the powers to consult, investigate, and cooperate. The noble Baroness, Lady White, said that what her Amendment did was to add that they should seek advice. It says, "to seek advice with a view to adopting". The one short point that I want to make is that I bear strongly in mind, as do my noble friends, that there will be a financial burden on the disposal or collection authorities, but that, as the noble Baroness, Lady White, said, these may well be offset by the value of the re-cycled waste. When the noble Baroness comes to draft what she has promised, I hope that she will make everything possible just as soon as it becomes worth while. That is what we want to see. We realise that local authorities cannot do at once everything that ought to be done. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNTROYAL LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNTROYAL moved Amendment No. 6:
Page 2, line 27, leave out ("the said waste") and insert ("controlled waste in its area").
The noble Lord said: On behalf of my noble friend Lady Young, I beg leave to move Amendment No. 6, which is a simple drafting Amendment. Clause 2(2) lists various matters which are to be included by the waste disposal authorities in their disposal plans. Several of the matters refer to information to be included about "controlled waste", but at paragraph (e) a reference to "the said waste" has intruded. The proposed Amendment substitutes "controlled waste" so that it conforms to the drafting employed elsewhere in the subsec-
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tion. That is all this Amendment is about.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
6.25 p.m.
LORD HENLEY LORD HENLEY moved Amendment No. 8:
Page 2. line 36, at end insert—
("(h) the after-treatment of the disposal site following the period specified in the plan;").
The noble Lord said: This Amendment seeks to add something to what the disposal authority is to include in its plan, and it deals with after-treatment. This is to try to bring it in line with what local authorities often do with regard to planning for mineral extraction, or for the extraction of sand and gravel. Often one has, in extracting sand and gravel, to make an awful mess. This is sometimes inevitable, but what one can at least do is ensure that it is put hack as best as it possibly can be. This should also apply to the after-treatment of sites for disposal of waste, which are often extremely unsightly and not properly dealt with.
I do not want to fall into the error to which the noble Lord, Lord Redcliffe-Maud, drew attention, and to try to spell out in too great detail what a local authority—in this case a disposal authority—is supposed to do, as if that disposal authority were incapable of doing it. Nevertheless, something should be said about it, or, if the Government think it should not, I should want to know why. I cannot find that covered in the Bill. There is something about it in Clause 2(2)(e), which deals with disposal and reclamation. Again, as the noble Baroness, Lady White, mentioned, there is a vague reference to the question of disposal in Clause 12. However, none of these really cover what I am getting at, which is the after-treatment of the site. Nor would it have been covered if the noble Baroness's Amendment No. 1, dealing with public authorities having regard to pollution, had been accepted. It seems to me that it is a useful addition to what is required of a disposal authority, and I beg to move.
BARONESS YOUNG: I am sure that we all have a great deal of sympathy with Lord Henley's proposal about the after-treatment of disposal sites. Clearly, after rubbish has been tipped the site should be left in as tidy and orderly a condition

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as possible, because it is going to be either left as an open space or used for something else. This is a matter of importance. We do not think that the Amendment is in quite the right place. The noble Lord is suggesting that it should be part of the waste disposal plan. That of course comes as the first stage. The waste disposal authority will draw up a plan. What the plan should in general terms include is set out under Clause 2(2) in these various further subsections. But the type of plan that it will be can only be stated in terms of the general matters; and the actual conditions attached to the running of each disposal site must inevitably vary because each authority will be different and each authority will have different problems with which to deal.
To include a stipulation about landscaping at this overall plan-making stage would be to put it in the wrong place, because we do not consider that these general, overall plans should contain this detailed advice about the conditions to be imposed upon a particular disposal site. However, we have considered this matter, and we are proposing an Amendment to Clause 4(7) which will provide that site licence conditions should indicate the steps to be taken with a view to facilitating compliance with any conditions of the planning permission in force for the site. This means that we hope to meet the point of the noble Lord, Lord Henley, later on in the Bill in those clauses which deal both with planning permission (which will of course include detailed conditions about the site and the condition in which it should be left when it is no longer used for tipping) and with licensing conditions, so that the licensing conditions will be in step with the planning permission. I therefore hope that the noble Lord, Lord Henley, will be able to withdraw his Amendment.
LORD HENLEY: I am much obliged to the noble Baroness. I hope that I have not missed what she is going to do in one of the Amendments she already has down. I have been caught out by this once before, in not having read Amendment No. 212. Have I missed it in the Amendments down in the noble Baroness's name under Clause 4, or is it something which will be put down at a later stage?
BARONESS YOUNG: We shall be putting it down at a later stage.
LORD HENLEY: I am much obliged to the noble Baroness. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
6.32 p.m.
VISCOUNT AMORY VISCOUNT AMORY moved Amendment No. 9:
Page 3, line 13, after ("Wales,") insert ("each other disposal authority in the area of the county within which the disposal authority is situated and with")
The noble Viscount said: I beg to move Amendment No. 9, and I should like to speak briefly also to No. 10. I am venturing to do something that I have never had the nerve to do before, which is to speak on behalf of Wales. I think noble Lords know that, generally, the counties in Wales would have preferred that the disposal functions should have been laid on counties rather than on districts, as in the case of England. However, I do not propose to pursue that point at this stage; but what the Welsh counties do feel is that it really is important that waste disposal plans made by a district should be related at least to the county in which that district is.
The suggested Amendments do not in any way alter the statutory responsibilities of the new Welsh district councils; in fact, there is already in this clause a provision requiring a district to consult with the county. What is suggested here is that districts should not only consult with the county but consult also with each other.
It is proposed in Amendment No. 10 that this should be done through a joint committee, the constitution of the committee and other consequential matters being left to be prescribed in regulations to be made by the Secretary of State. I know that consultation runs the whole way through this Bill, as indeed it does through the whole of the new Local Government Act. My noble friend may say that it is difficult to go on laying down in detail that consultation is required, but it seems that in this particular case, in relation to Wales (that, at any rate, is the opinion I think held by the counties), it would be helpful if the districts within a county consulted together, and not only with the county council

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itself, to make sure that whatever is done is related to the interests of the county as a whole. I beg to move.
BARONESS WHITE: I am delighted to welcome the interest of the noble Viscount, Lord Amory, in the affairs of the Principality, more particularly as I happen to agree with him. It is of course perfectly true that under the Local Government Act the situation in Wales is different from that in England in so far as the Welsh districts are both the collection and the disposal authorities. But this, I think, is going to lead to very great difficulties in the industrial areas of Wales, particularly: far less so, I would surmise, in the rural counties. When the division of responsibilities for the Welsh local authorities under reorganisation was determined, it was very natural, think, that one should wish to place as many responsibilities as one reasonably could upon districts which had formerly been very noble counties in their own right—and there were a number of them in Wales. One could go through the list—Anglesey, Caernarvon, Merioneth, Montgomery, Cardigan and so on. These counties now become districts; so one can well understand the reasons why this particular disposition was made in the Principality.
But when one looks at the industrialised counties—and I have a list here of the districts in the North-East corner of Wales, in what is going to be the new county of Glwyd, in Gwent and in the three counties in Glamorgan—one sees that they illustrate the point made on Second Reading by the noble Lord, Lord Beeching, in, I thought, an extremely interesting and powerful speech when he spoke of the
"ill-match between sources of waste and disposal facilities".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27/11/73, cot. 60.]
Now some of these districts are quite small—and I speak with the most intimate knowledge of Flintshire, which was once my constituency. These areas, by themselves, and independently, are quite inappropriate for the disposal of waste material. I have had representations both from the shadow authority of Clwyd and from Glamorgan pointing out the extreme difficulties that will arise unless some
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special arrangements are made. As I say, the difficulties will be of particular significance in the industrial areas. In Flintshire, of course, we have an even greater difficulty because we are expected to take sometimes extremely toxic chemical waste from Cheshire. Apparently Cheshire, within its borders, does not have adequate facilities for disposal of some very disagreeable waste, so they bring it across the Border into Wales; and the county authorities there are, as I say, most disturbed at what may happen if this kind of disposal is not carefully planned between the various districts within their area. We have not had time to have the fullest possible discussion with all the Welsh counties, but they have considered this matter and no doubt it is for this reason that the noble Viscount Lord Amory, with his well-known interest in county council matters, has tabled these Amendments.
The meeting of the Welsh Counties, which is a sub-division of the County Councils Association, was held a couple of days ago. There is therefore this proposition, which will enable the conscience of the districts to remain unimpaired. They will remain the disposal authorities, of course—we are not suggesting for one moment that they should not—and also the collecting authorities; we do not want to upset that. But I think two things are necessary. My own later Amendment, No. 17, also refers to this situation in Wales, where we think that mere consultation, as suggested in the Bill as it stands, is not sufficient. I think we are going to have a—chaotic is perhaps too strong a word, but at any rate a very difficult situation unless we can he quite certain that there will be consultation between the neighbouring disposal authorities. As I shall hope to say when we reach Amendment No. 17, in my view there should be not merely consultation with the county as the planning authority but also the agreement of the county as the planning authority, subject always to the agreement of the Secretary of State where desirable. However, at this point I would only say that all the advice which I have received—and I have received a good deal in the past few weeks from various acquaintances and friends of mine in Welsh local government circles—is that these two Amendments should be accepted, and I hope they will be.
6.40 p.m.
LORD ABERDARE: I should like to welcome my noble friend Lord Amory to the ranks of those of us who speak on matters concerning the Celtic fringe. If I had one dispute with him about what he said it would be that he said he spoke on behalf of Wales, because others of us think that we also speak on behalf of Wales. But I am very concerned to answer his points which I am sure have great validity. The noble Baroness, Lady White, as she said, has another Amendment later in the list, No. 17, and perhaps we could go into the points she raised in more detail later. The noble Baroness goes further than my noble friend, requiring the agreement of the county council; my noble friend asks for consultation and a joint committee. When the noble Baroness was referring to the small districts and the difficulties they would have with waste disposal, I could not help thinking of my own small district, Mountain Ash Urban District Council, one of the first in Wales to install any reclamation plant for waste disposal. They did it a great many years ago, when the only other one that existed happened to be in Scotland. It is still working and I think they deserve great credit for it.
My noble friend has explained what he is after by his Amendments. Amendment No. 9 is designed to require that one disposal authority, one district, should consult all the other districts in its county area as well as the county council. There is already within the clause as it is drafted, provision for early consultation with the appropriate county council, and for considering at a later stage representations that might be made about the content of the draft plan. There is also in Clause 12 provision for consultation where the waste of one area may be disposed of in another waste disposal authority's area. I think that covers the point that was made by the noble Baroness, Lady White, about Flint and the neighbouring English district. Under Clause 12 consultations would be required between the two districts.
I agree that in principle other waste disposal authorities might wish to be consulted about the intentions of their neighbours. But I do not agree that this need be arranged as a statutory process within the framework of the county area.
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I am quite certain that in circumstances where it is desirable local authorities will consult with each other without having to be ordered to do so. The disadvantage of a compulsory county framework would I think be, for example, that it would require consultation between the Montgomery District Council and the Brecknock District Council because they would both be in the same county. But it would not require the much more likely need for consultation, between, say, the Rhymney Valley District and the adjoining District of Tonfaen because they would be in different counties. So I do not think that Amendment No. 9 would add very much; indeed, it might discourage the very consultations which we are seeking to provide.
So far as the next Amendment of my noble friend is concerned, about a joint committee, we have already decided, in the local Government Act of 1972, the question of the refuse disposal function, which in Wales is at district level. This was debated in your Lordships' House as well as in another place, and if my recollection is right, the noble Baroness, Lady White, was in favour of its being a district function in England as well—at least, that is the way in which she cast her vote. The issue in Wales has been settled at the otuset and the function remains, as it has been since 1936, the duty of the district councils. The Amendment suggesting a joint committee implies a measure of doubt about the adequacy of these consultative processes particularly as they concern the new Welsh county councils. I should like to reassure my noble friend on this score that the county councils will have all the planning control they need over land use, which is the major factor in this matter.
I will go into rather more detail on this matter when we come to Amendment No. 17, but I hope that what I have said is sufficient to convince my noble friend that while we are determined that there shall be full consultation we do not think that putting it in the statutory form he suggests would be of any advantage.
VISCOUNT AMORY: I have listened carefully to what my noble friend has said, and I agree with him that we must rely on the habit and the practice of consultation between local authorities in all cases where it seems common sense on

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their part to do so, perhaps without laying it down specifically in every case in the Bill. My noble friend reminded us that consultation between a particular district and the county is required under the Bill. I suppose my noble friend visualises that if in the course of consultation the county felt a particular district should consult its neighbours, it would point that out and hope that the consultation would take place informally. If my noble friend is really sure that the required amount of consultation will be assured so far as possible under the provisions of the Bill as it stands, I shall not feel justified in pressing my Amendments further. I hope that, in one way or another, all the consultation that is required, particularly in the cases to which the noble Baroness, Lady White, referred in the industrialised areas of Wales, will take place. I understand that my noble friend is giving us his opinion that all the necessary consultation will take place, and I therefore beg leave to withdraw my Amendment No. 9.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
6.48 p.m.
LORD HENLEY LORD HENLEY moved Amendment No. 11:
Page 3, line 19, leave out ("such persons as are prescribed") and insert ("the owners and occupiers of the lands which the disposal authority propose shall be the sites for disposing of controlled waste, and such other persons as are prescribed;").
The noble Lord said: My Amendment also is about consultation; indeed I have several others on the same point. I fear that I may get the same sort of answer as was given to the noble Viscount, Lord Amory. It is on consultation in no small measure that the success or otherwise of the disposal authorities will depend, and I hope that on some of the Amendments which I propose to move the Government will bear that very much in mind and will come some way towards meeting me. This particular Amendment seeks to add to "such persons as are prescribed" further people. The existing wording does not seem to me to go far enough and the fact that the "persons" are to be " prescribed " by regulation is not altogether satisfactory. It seems to me that people on the land, who have their being by it and know about it, the owners arid the occupiers, should be consulted in the
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first place. It may be that they are consulted as a matter of course; that may be implicit in the Bill, although I have not noticed it. I am not sure what is the form with regard to other Acts of a similar kind where, as a last resort, land is taken by compulsory purchase from an owner or occupier or what degree of consultation is provided for. But here it seems to me, especially with regard to disposal sites (I spoke just now about the after-treatment of disposal sites, and in a way this follows on that), that the owner or occupier should be consulted. I hope that I shall get some comfort from the Government.
VISCOUNT AMORY: At first sight, certainly the proposal the noble Lord, Lord Henley, has made seems to be a reasonable one. If it is severely frowned on, I suppose he and I will have to leave the Chamber to hold some kind of indignation meeting.
LORD ROCHESTER: I should like to support briefly what my noble friend and the noble Viscount, Lord Amory, have had to say about consultation. My experience has been in industry rather than as a landowner—apart, that is, from hacking about on my two acres in Cheshire. After what the noble Baroness, Lady White, said about Cheshire, I am not sure that I should confess to having both lived and worked there for some time; but that is the case. I suggest that the principles which underlie what can happen in joint consultation in industry should apply in this particular case. Increasingly one principle to which good management seeks to adhere in industry nowadays is that before taking decisions they should, as far as possible, consult with those who are likely to be affected by those decisions. It often happens that what is decided is then regarded as being better, not simply by those who have been consulted but by management—better, that is, than what would have been the case without the contributions of those affected by the decisions. I suggest that the same principles should be applied here and that all disposal authorities, in preparing their plans, would themselves benefit from consulting with owners and occupiers of the land of which they propose to make use. I should like to support what has

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been said, and I hope that the Government will in some way find it possible to accommodate this point in the Bill.
LORD HAWKE: I, too, support this proposal, not as a landowner but from the point of view that the owners or occupiers of the land are likely to be the people most able to represent the viewpoint of the local inhabitants. I well remember a case where the local authority, in an authoritarian manner, proceeded to locate a waste dump about 400 yards upwind of our local village. Eventually it got into the national Press through the rumpus created by two or three people, and ultimately the dump was closed. Those are the sort of people who should have been consulted in advance, and the dumps should never have been located there at all.
BARONESS YOUNG: There is no doubt that this Bill includes a number of occasions when there must be statutory consultation, and for all the reasons which have been advanced by noble Lords who have spoken this is a principle which we accept as being of importance. Indeed, subsection (3) makes it quite clear that in five cases there must be statutory consultation with various authorities that will be concerned in the waste disposal plan; and subsection (6), as the noble Lord, Lord Henley, has said includes
"such persons as are prescribed by the Secretary of State".
The noble Lord is suggesting that we should add yet another group of people with whom there should be statutory consultation. One of the difficulties is that it is very easy to multiply the list of people who should be statutorily consulted and therefore make a much more complicated situation. However, I think there is substance in the point that landowners should be considered. It could well be that we should consider the private waste disposal operators in this connection. So I am prepared to consider this Amendment to see whether we should make it include statutory consultation on the lines suggested.
LORD HENLEY: I am grateful to the noble Baroness, and beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
VISCOUNT AMORY: I now have no quorum for my indignation meeting.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
BARONESS YOUNG: In view of the time, and what we know of another function that is taking place this evening, I beg to move that the House do now resume.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House resumed.