§ 2.53 p.m.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, although the actual wording of the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper is very slightly out of date, I still beg leave to ask it.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government why, if Ministers say that at the present time there are adequate supplies of petrol, it is almost impossible to obtain petrol in the Inner London Area.
§ THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD DRUMALBYN)My Lords, petrol supplies to garages in the period November 19 to December 12 are based on the total amounts delivered in the corresponding period in 1972 less 10 per cent., apportioned on the basis of deliveries made to particular garages in September, 1973. This should suffice if motorists observe the requests for economies that have been made. Demand has been artificially increased because many motorists have been topping up their tanks at every available opportunity. It now appears that motorists are heeding the Government's appeals, and the situation seems to be improving.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, if Her Majesty's Government have evidence that topping-up has been one of the principal troubles, would they not consider adopting the policy which many weeks ago was suggested in The Times, of asking garages not to sell petrol in amounts of less than four gallons for a small car and six gallons for a large car, which would go a long way towards stopping this topping-up nonsense?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I am aware that some garages are already doing this; but it is of course up to them to allocate as they see fit.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, I am sorry to say that my noble friend has not answered my question. The suggestion in The Times was that Her Majesty's Government should ask garages to do this. Is there anything against their asking them to do it?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, not at all, except that it would go through the Oil Industry Emergency Committee. I will draw this point to the attention of my right honourable friend.
§ LORD SLATERMy Lords, can the noble Lord say whether any export is taking place at the moment by the oil companies, particularly Shell, to another country?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, that seems to be rather a different question from the one on the Order Paper.
§ LORD DOUGLASS OF CLEVELANDMy Lords, may I ask whether the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Derwent —which has great merit—that no car should be able to get less than, say, four gallons, would not impinge on those smaller garages whose supplies seem to be restricted and who are trying to share it out by allowing a maximum of two gallons per customer?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNYes, my Lords; I think it must depend on the individual circumstances of the garages. I thought my noble friend was indicating that this was a suggestion that might be made; it certainly would not be mandatory.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, would the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, take serious objection to my repeating a question which I put to him when we were debating the Emergency Powers? He will recall the occasion when I asked him about the assurances Her Majesty's Government had obtained from the Arab States for a plentiful supply of petrol and oil products. Does he recall that on that occasion he said he was unable either to give me an assurance or to deny that there were assurances? Could he qualify the situation now?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I do not think I ought to do so now, because it is a question that is quite outside what I have been asked. I think the House is fully aware of the general situation, and I need not repeat what has been said elsewhere.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, in the light of the noble Lord's reference to garages using their expertise in this matter, can the noble Lord say anything in regard to those garages which are now charging 50p for a gallon of petrol? What is the view of Her Majesty's Government about this? Does not the noble Lord recognise that garages with a much lower turnover can clearly now charge 50p per gallon and still be within the Prices Code? In the light of what could be a major inflationary consequence, can the noble Lord say whether the Government will take steps to bring prices back to their original level?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, the noble Lord will be aware that there are two controls here. One is the margin control, and the other is the overall profit control. If they are charging 50p they are certainly not within the margin control. If the noble Lord, or any other noble Lord, can bring to my attention cases of this, I shall be glad to hear of them.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, the noble Lord may be aware that a member of the Price Commission has said that it was lawful to charge 50p a gallon so long as it was within the overall profit limit. That is the point that I was seeking to make and as to which I was asking whether the noble Lord could express a view.
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I do not think I ought to express a view on what the Price Commission have said. I was not aware that they had said this, but, in any case, I do not think I ought to express an opinion upon it. Of course if it is lawful to be done just now, the question then is whether it is expedient that it should be done, and that is another question that we should have to examine.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, but is it right that garages should be making these increased profits as a consequence of the hardship to the public?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I understood the noble Lord was saying that the Price Commission had said that it was lawful because they were not making very much increased profit. If it is on the profit control, that is a different matter which would have to be looked at in a wider context.
§ LORD PEDDIEMy Lords, in the light of the comments which have just been made, may I ask whether or not the Government or the Price Commission can exercise any control at all over the individual prices charged for the individual gallon of petrol?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, the Government could exercise such a control under the Act that we have just passed, namely, the Fuel and Electricity (Control) Act, if they thought it necessary.
LORD BELHAVEN AND STENTONMy Lords, can my noble friend say whether it is the Government's opinion that this situation which has hit us over the last week or two is going to continue or not, or is it getting better? There are people, such as car hire firms, whose livelihood have been very hard hit in the last ten days, and I think they would like to know.
§ LORD DRUMALBYNWhat I said was that the situation at the pumps was getting better. I was not making a general statement about the oil situation.
§ LORD THOMASMy Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that if the motorists in the Inner London area exercised more patience and less greed in this matter of topping up their tanks, the situation would be self-resolving?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I am bound to agree with my noble friend, but I think that is already happening. It was not so much that they were greedy, but they were frightened that they would not get supplies. Now they have much less need to be frightened.
§ LORD ARWYNMy Lords, is the Minister aware that the price of £1, which was charged by one garage for 2½ gallons, represents a price of 40p a gallon. Yet other garages are charging nearer 35p for the same quality of petrol. Who authorises these prices? That is what happened to me yesterday on the M4.
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I think noble Lords will know the situation under the counter-inflation system, and if they have reason to believe that in individual cases the regulations here are being infringed, then they should bring the matter to the attention of the Government.