§ 7.47 p.m.
§ LORD BELSTEAD rose to move, That the Draft Appropriation (No. 3) (Northern Ireland) Order 1973, laid before the House on November 15, be approved. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move the Order standing in my name on the Order Paper. I mentioned when moving the Appropriation (No. 2) (Northern Ireland) Order 1973 that Supplementary Estimates would be necessary during the present year. The Appropriation Order now before Parliament embodies the Autumn Supplementary Estimate. The total to be appropriated by the present Order is approximately £31 million and brings the total of Estimates during the current financial year to almost £593 million. Almost £16 million of the additional £31 million results from local government reorganisation and represents a transfer of expenditure within the public service. It should be borne in mind, however, that this is to an extent a gross figure, since grants and other debts due to the former local authorities were sometimes not received by them by the date of reorganisation. Of the balance, about £9 million is required for making available additional finance for certain services, particularly law and order, and the social services; and just over £6 million is required for pay increases, including increases for civil servants and teachers. My Lords, I beg to move.
§ Moved, That the Draft Appropriation (No. 3) (Northern Ireland) Order 1973, laid before the House on November 15, be approved.—(Lord Belstead.)
§ 7.50 p.m.
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, once again I thank the noble Lord for his explanation. As he says, the Order authorises a further issue of something in excess of £31 million from the Northern Ireland Consolidated Fund for 1973–74. Together with the sums granted and the appropriations in aid for the full year, I make the total figure some £630,052,850. I take note that the total for 1972–73, for those two items together, was £484,145,810. This means, if my arithmetic is correct, an overall increase of £145,907,040. I wonder why the expenditure for Northern Ireland has increased by so much? How much of 847 that expenditure is borne by Whitehall? Is the increase in line with Government policy on public expenditure in relation to the control of inflation? If I may turn to page 3 of the Order, under Class III, I notice a decrease of £3,000 for police services. I wonder why there should be a reduction in this figure, having regard to all the circumstances. There are a number of questions I should have liked to ask, but the time is late and I know the noble Lord has a very busy time and we have another Order to take. I am sorry that I did not warn him that I should be asking these questions, and if he is not able to let me have answers to-night I would appreciate them when he can let me have them. It seems to me that these are questions which are not only well worth asking but which are well worthy of replies, since it clearly is a matter of public policy.
§ 7.52 p.m.
§ VISCOUNT BROOKEBOROUGHMy Lords, I am emboldened, after Lord Garnsworthy's speech on the first Order, to go into a little more detail on this second Draft Order, in spite of the fact that the time is late. I speak as Chairman of the Parliamentary Unionist Party in Northern Ireland. Nobody agrees with the noble Lord more than I do on the question of encouraging everything that is going on in order to make sure that in the near future this noble House does not have to deal in a short time at a late hour with most important matters concerning part of the United Kingdom which previously had governed itself. But I feel that this is an important Draft Order and that this is one of the few occasions on which I can raise certain subjects which it is not normally easy within this House to raise. I will not keep noble Lords very long.
First of all, I should like to refer to Class III. The noble Lord noted that there was a reduction of £3,000 in the amount of money for the Royal Ulster Constabulary. This decrease at this time causes surprise. I am sure my noble friend will find a very good answer; but the facts of the matter are that both the regular R.U.C. and the reserves are under strength. Could that extra £3,000 have been used in recruiting, or for some other 848 method to help to bring them up to strength? It is slightly ironic that at this time we hear of enormous pressures and calls from various communities to make the Royal Ulster Constabulary more acceptable to what is called "part of the minority"—that is, those who are of Roman Catholic faith. I should like to know what the Government are going to do about this fact: that up to three weeks ago the recruiting officers from the R.U.C. were not allowed into those schools which were controlled by Roman Catholic churches. I find it slightly ironic that the clerics of that Church should be appealing for a reorganisation to make the R.U.C. acceptable to their own community when, at the same time, they do not appear to me to be acting in order to help the R.U.C. recruit in that particular part of our community—the part in which it is stated that the R.U.C. are not acceptable. I find the decrease of £3,000 is rather surprising at this point.
I want to pay to the R.U.C. the most tremendous tribute that I could ever pay to any body of men. For five years they have been through an absolute war. When they go back to their homes at night every single one of them stands the risk of murder, even when they are not on patrol. My knowledge of them throughout the whole of the country leads me to have the greatest admiration for them. When I say that, it must not be taken that I have no admiration for our Army, because I have been out with our Army throughout the whole of Ulster and my admiration is great. But members of our Army get a medal when they have served one full term of four months in Northern Ireland. The R.U.C. has no recognition in the form of a service medal. I should like to ask my noble friend Lord Belstead whether he can recommend to somebody that this point be considered urgently. There are various incentives, one being money and another being recognition of public service.
The reserve of the R.U.C. should be built up as quickly as possible. I must declare an interest here, because my wife is a constable in the Royal Ulster Constabulary Women's Reserve and does her stint in every possible way on the Border, at road blocks and patrolling in the towns. The reserve constables are working out of patriotism. There is no promotion; there are no sergeants or 849 inspectors in the reserve. Out of this patriotism they should get the satisfaction of service, and this can be given in various ways. When reservists report for duty, having already done a full day's work, they go to the station and if the police station has a number of reservists on its books it is sometimes difficult to allocate to them vehicles and equipment, wireless sets, and the like, so that they are employed on a satisfactory job. I therefore ask my noble friend to make sure that there is a surplus of equipment at every station where reserve police, both female and male constables, are operating. There is nothing more killing to recruiting—and I have done an enormous amount of recruiting for the R.U.C.—than hearing of someone who has gone to a police station to do his duty, only to be told that he cannot be sent out on a job that gives job satisfaction. We have heard good sense talked in this House about sex equality. May I suggest, to the noble Lord that he should have absolute sex equality, in that the ladies should have the same equipment and protection as have the men?
I want now to move to Class IV, health and social services. I wish to make a completely new suggestion. My ideas are supported by a man called Professor Stewart, who has taken a great interest in Northern Ireland constitutional affairs, and a memorandum written by him on this subject was sent by my honourable friend the Member for Chigwell in another place and by an eminent surgeon in Belfast. Mr. Robb, to the Department of Education and Science.
I should like to see basically, an extension of the school leaving age, but the extended time used for conscripted service for the community. When I was in the Government at Stormont I was lucky enough to start an organisation called Enterprise Ulster, by which unskilled labour was taken and used for conservation and amenity jobs. It was taken out of areas where there was no work, and has been most successful. The noble Lord the Lord Privy Seal, who is not here, attributed this success largely to getting the organisation made a statutory body. It has been one of the success stories of the last two years. Sir Cecil Bateman, who was our Head of Civil Service, played an enormous part in getting 850 this project carried out. It was in fact a scaled-down Roosevelt C.C.C.—Civil Conservation Corps—and they have done an enormous amount in Northern Ireland to tidy it up; and not only to tidy it up but to give their own prestige a boost, because there is nothing more damning than to be unemployed. I should like to take part of the elements of that organisation, expand it and change it. I do not want my suggestion of a conscripted service to be confused with Enterprise Ulster, which is going extremely well.
One of the results of this enterprise is that people have been taken out of the areas where there have been community problems and are working in a very much better environment than they did before. At this moment there are discussions going on as to whether we can integrate or should integrate education. As noble Lords will know, unfortunately we have Roman Catholic schools, State schools and Protestant schools, and even this week the teacher training colleges were discussing whether they could combine and stop having denominational training. I believe that all these are matters which will take time.
I therefore go to something entirely new. We should have a compulsory period for every school leaver so that he would leave the community in which he lives and serve either in Ulster or somewhere else in the United Kingdom, or, indeed, in voluntary overseas work. I foresee a minimal scheme. For some period of their service the school leavers should be living outside their own areas; they should not be living at home. This will present many problems, but these must be tackled because in community problems we have to take a risk and do something drastic. For four years we have had four levels of school leavers, and in some areas—and as noble Lords will know, the areas involved are not very large—they have never known proper law and order. I feel that we should take hold of these people at the earliest possible moment and show them how other people live.
In the area where I live we have no community problem at all; we are a 50/50 community. People in my area, particularly young people, find it difficult to understand the stresses and strains which people of their own age have to undergo 851 in confined areas like Ballymurphy and The Falls. When you talk to them you find that it is virtually impossible for them to conceive of the strains that those people are suffering. In East Belfast and other places, the form of community life has largely disappeared, and the first thing we must do is to make sure that the coming generation knows what the whole of Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom are like. This will create quite a number of problems when it comes to apprenticeship. Industries employing apprentices have problems with regard to the ages at which they may go into the industry, but I cannot believe that all these problems cannot be solved either by experiment or in some other way. I should like to feel that a large proportion of these people would opt to go into the Army, the Navy or the Air Force—I cannot think of anything better.
I should like to have a completely new approach. I should particularly like education to be integrated. I see enormous problems about this. Therefore, can we not get a new idea and have conscription? It is a horrible word which people do not like but, after all, all education is conscription in that everybody has to remain in schools until a certain age. All I am suggesting is that there should be an extensison of that age. We must do something, and this is my suggestion.
§ 7.55 p.m.
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, and to my noble friend Lord Brookeborough for speaking on this very wide-ranging Order. The difference between the last Order in 1972, and the Order which is under discussion, something like £75 million quarried out by the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, is mainly due to local government reorganisation. In other words, expenditure which was previously borne by local authorities is now falling on central Government funds. This sounds unusual when said at Westminster, but as the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, with his experience of local government will understand, the reforms that were carried out in Northern Ireland were not the same as in this country. Several of the functions of local government were switched to central Government organisations, and much of the balance is taken 852 up by salary and price increases. I would assure both my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, that there is not a decrease of £3,000 in regard to the Police Service. The income will be down by this amount, but in the "sums granted" column your Lordships will see an increase in expenditure under this head of £2,607,000.
My noble friend Lord Brookeborough put to me specifically the point about a medal for the Royal Ulster Constabulary. Anyone serving in Northern Ireland whose home happens to be in this country is perhaps as aware as noble Lords who come from the Province of the remarkable and outstanding and courageous service of the Royal Ulster Constabulary, particularly during the present campaign of terror in Northern Ireland. I wonder whether the award of a medal of the sort my noble friend has recommended would be appropriate in present circumstances. I say that bearing in mind that the R.U.C. are already eligible for awards for gallantry and distinguished service, and of course many such individual awards have been made. Understandably, living in an area where life is not always easy, my noble friend brought up the point about recruiting for the R.U.C. and the R.U.C. Reserve. I am sure that my noble friend would agree that to put the matter into perspective it should be said that recruitment to the R.U.C. is as good as to any police force in the United Kingdom and much better than most, but it has to be judged against the magnitude of the task and the peculiarities of the Northern Ireland situation at the present time. If my noble friend would forgive me, I would rather not pursue this question at the present time on this Order, except to say two things: first, that both my right honourable friend the previous Secretary of State and my right honourable friend the present Secretary of State have made, and are making, it their business to encourage those who serve in Northern Ireland to visit as often as possible the Royal Ulster Constabulary to see and hear at first hand what is going on. This we are energetically endeavouring to do. Secondly, I will draw to my right honourable friend's attention what my noble friend has said, because I think the point is important but, as I say, if my noble friend would forgive me, it is one that on this occasion on this Order should not be pursued further.
853 Finally, my noble friend brought up a most interesting and valuable suggestion for the extension of voluntary service in Northern Ireland. The noble Viscount will know better than I, because of his involvement in Enterprise Ulster at its inception, that the scheme is already providing employment for almost 1,000 people at the present time; and, with the Government's training brochure to which my noble friend also referred, it is playing a critically important role in identifying and developing the potential of the unemployed in ways which increase their attractiveness in the ordinary labour market. It is therefore a significant factor for providing a stronger basis for economic growth in Northern Ireland. However, my noble friend has made a specific suggestion, that Enterprise Ulster should be offered, and should be offered to young people, possibly on a compulsory basis.
§ VISCOUNT BROOKEBOROUGHMy Lords, will the noble Lord give way? I am sorry if I said that. What I wanted to say was that one of the elements, a bonus, that came out of Enterprise Ulster was the effect on the community. I do not want Enterprise Ulster in any way confused with the other matter.
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, I apologise to my noble friend. As my noble friend was speaking I thought that I ought in closing to draw to the attention of the House that we have operating in Belfast at the moment what is known as the Voluntary Services Bureau, which my noble friend will know of very well. Community Service Volunteers, started of course by a remarkable man, Alec Dixon, is now also offering its services in Belfast. There are examples which have been put to me at first hand, and to colleagues, of very valuable inter-school co-operation. The noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, might be interested to know that only about a week ago I was told at first hand of a holiday which had been arranged and concluded between two Roman Catholic schools, two Protestant schools and a mixture of boys' and girls' schools, and what an enormous success it had been. These are matters which at the moment are offering valuable services to young people, and offering them outlets to give service to other people as well.
854 I should like to study what my noble friend has said because it is important. The only thing that worries me about it is this. Even having listened to what my noble friend has just said, there is just the danger of making voluntary service compulsory. On those grounds, perhaps I might be able to leave this matter at the moment and say that I should like to look at it again; and ask your Lordships, unless there are any other points to be raised, that this Order might now be passed.
VISCOUNT BR OOKEBOROUGHMy Lords, may I thank the noble Lord for the courtesy of his reply, and other noble Lords for bearing with me in speaking on this Motion.
§ On Question, Motion agreed to.