§ VISCOUNT MONCKTON OF BRENCHLEYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have reached a decision on the future of the Royal Armoured Corps Gunnery School at Lulworth.
§ LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, the proposal to move the R.A.C. Gunnery Range from Lulworth to Castlemartin was made in the Report of the Defence Lands Committee under the chairmanship of Lord Nugent of Guildford. The Report was published in July and a period was set aside for public comment on and discussion of its recommendations. This period still continues and the Government have not yet reached a decision; as the Prime Minister stated in October in answer to a Question in another place, it is hoped to make an announcement early in the New Year.
§ VISCOUNT MONCKTON OF BRENCHLEYMy Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that Answer, may I ask whether he would not agree that the desirability of getting an early answer will be of help to the Army; that the majority of those who made representations were in favour of this gunnery range remaining where it was, and that the societies dealing with archæology and with birds were equally keen for it to stay where it was? Lastly, is my noble 434 friend aware that the cost of the move is well in excess of £14 million?
§ LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, there is at least one noble Lord, whom I suspect we shall be hearing from in a moment, who would not agree with everything the noble Viscount said. It is precisely because there is a certain amount of local dissension that the Government feel it would be better to take a little further time for consultation.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that many of us appreciate the way in which the Minister of Defence has consulted local opinion? Is the noble Lord aware that the evidence before him indicates that a large majority of residents in this area desire that it shall be freed from Army control? May I ask him whether in any decision which is reached he will consider not merely the beauty of the area but its unique ecological, architectural and wild life value?
§ LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, that all these considerations are very much in my noble friend's mind. As I understand it. the problem is that some of the truly local people are in fact very much in favour of retaining the range at Lulworth.
§ BARONESS WHITEMy Lords, is the noble Lord not aware that there are many in Pembrokeshire who have no wish to have any extension of Castlemartin, which is the alternative proposed for Lulworth? Apart from this local problem, would not the noble Lord agree that if everyone is to be consulted it would be a good thing if we could have a debate in this House on the Defence Lands Report? Everybody is being consulted, apparently, except the Houses of Parliament.
§ LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, I can assure the noble Baroness, Lady White, that my noble friend is only too well aware of the feeling at Castlemartin. So far as the question of a debate is concerned, I will take this up with the Leader of the House and the Chief Whip.
§ LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGHMy Lords, will the noble Lord give an assurance that if Lulworth is abandoned 435 the Crichel Down rules will apply, and that on no account will it be permitted that land which belonged to local families for hundreds of years will be stolen to satisfy the political theories of fanatics?
§ LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, I do not seriously think that the noble Lord expects me to give an affirmative answer to that.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, is the proposed removal of this gunnery school being considered in conjunction with the removal of the Shoeburyness experimental establishment, which will have to be moved if the Maplin Airport proposal goes forward?
§ LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, it is not necessarily being considered in conjunction, although it is part of the same basic pattern. The Nugent Report suggests that Lulworth should be removed to Castlemartin, independent of the removal of Maplin to Scotland.
§ LORD ELTONMy Lords, this is a complex question, but is my noble friend aware of the fact that the longer one gives consideration to it the greater are the burdens of those employed by the military establishment in wondering whether their jobs will last, as well as the anxieties of those living at the other end of the projected journey, in Castlemartin, who will be wondering if their amenities will be diminished? Is it not possible to expedite the process of decision-making?
§ LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, I think we have to balance the disadvantage of the uncertainty of people in doubt against the need to have adequate consultation before a decision is taken.
§ THE EARL OF CROMARTIEMy Lords, may I say to the noble Lord that I hope this proposal does not mean further pressure on the gunnery at Tain where we having a bobbing range? We do not want a gunnery range.
§ LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, my noble friend is aware of the resistance to putting ranges almost anywhere else. The curious thing is that the local inhabitants at Lulworth want to retain their range, or at least some of it, and I have already said that 436 the proposal to move Maplin to Tain is basically independent of the proposal to move Lulworth to Castlemartin.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, will the Minister bear in mind, when considering the Crichel Down precedent, that personal pledges in writing were given to the tenants in this area as well as to the landlords, and that a number of those tenants are expecting that the pledge that they will be allowed to return will be met?
§ LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, I am sorry I cannot give a specific answer to that question, but I am quite certain that any Government would want to stick to the pledges given to any tenant by landlords.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, could the Minister say why it should cost £14 million to move this gunnery school? Could he say what there is to move that would cost so much money?
§ LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, in the same way as the noble Baroness, I was surprised at the figure. The answer is principally barracks, gun emplacements, access and communications equipment.