§ 2.50 p.m.
§ BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question of which I have given Her Majesty's Government Private Notice.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have any information about the major breach of sanctions by the suppliers of Boeing aircraft to Rhodesia, and whether the matter has been referred to the Sanctions Committee of the United Nations.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, we have not yet received any further information on the sale of Boeing aircraft to Rhodesia that has not already been made public. This information is available to the United Nations Sanctions Committee. If we obtain any facts which will assist the United Nations we will inform the Sanctions Committee.
§ BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOEMy Lords, while thanking the noble Baroness for that reply, might one ask her whether she does not feel it to be a trifle negative, especially in combination with the unfortunate impression 1036 given by the spokesman of her Department yesterday that Britain does not have a special responsibility in this regard? May we ask the noble Baroness whether she accepts the special responsibility of this country for Rhodesia and for initiating the Sanctions Committee? Would it not be better in this case for this country to take the initiative rather than to leave it to other members of the Sanctions Committee?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, we have never in the past passed on information which is already available to the United Nations Sanctions Committee. I think the noble Baroness, on reflection, will think that my reply was not by any means negative, because she will understand that in this kind of sanctions-breaking operation the Rhodesian authorities have been at great pains to conceal the origin of these aircraft, and it takes time to find this out. We certainly accept responsibility for Rhodesia, but, as I think the House knows, we have very little real authority on the ground and much less in the air.
§ BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOEMy Lords, we totally understand how little authority we have there, but could the noble Baroness not make representations at the United Nations for its members to deny landing rights for these planes when they go outside Rhodesia, to deny them navigational facilities and to deny spare parts, so as to frustrate this sanction-breaking activity?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, we are at the moment engaged in trying to find out the facts of the sale. I should think it most unlikely that any countries would grant over-flying rights, beyond the countries to which the present aircraft of Rhodesia go. These do not, of course, accept the sanctions ruling of the United Nations.
§ LORD AVEBURYMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that, according to some reports in the newspapers, these aircraft originated in Switzerland and flew through Portugal? In view of the fact that we are about to celebrate the anniversary of the Portuguese Alliance, which is the oldest alliance into which the United Kingdom has entered, would 1037 she not make representations to the Portuguese authorities that they should not allow aircraft which are being purchased by the Rhodesian authorities, in contravention of the sanctions, to land and to be granted facilities at Portuguese airports? Would she further ask them whether they are intending to grant landing rights for these Boeing 707s or 720s when the Rhodesian airline puts them into operation, so that representations can be made against that as well?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, as I think I said in answer to the previous question, Portugal does not accept the imposition of sanctions, and therefore I do not think that in that respect it would be of much use.
§ LORD WIGGMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that the question of supply of aircraft is one thing but the maintenance of those aircraft flying is another, and to fulfil the second role there must be access to spare parts? While Her Majesty's Government can absolve themselves of responsibility as regards the Boeings, is it not a fact that the Rhodesian Government have had Vickers Viscounts for many years, and they have been kept flying only because some means must have been found to supply them with spare parts? Would the Minister look into that question?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, so far as the Vickers Viscounts are concerned, understand that their maintenance was due to the method known as cannibalisation, whereby you take one aircraft to pieces and use the pieces as spare parts to mend the others. As far as spare parts for the Boeings are concerned, the Boeing Aircraft Corporation have said publicly that they will refuse to provide spares.
§ LORD WIGGMy Lords, would Her Majesty's Government take similar action as regards British aircraft? Cannibalisation is always a possibility, but unless you eat yourself there must be a limit to that. Some of the aircraft the Rhodesian Government have they have had for ten years, so that the cannibalisation policy must have long since worked its way through. If Her Majesty's Government would show vigour in taking every step 1038 possible to prevent the supply of spare parts might not that be a degree of the kind of pressure they wish to exert on Mr. Smith, always assuming that they do?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I am not sure whether the noble Lord was suggesting that this Govenment supply spare parts for the Viscounts, because if so, that is certainly not true.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, might I ask the noble Baroness whether she has been in touch with the Commonwealth Sanctions Committee, with which I should have thought we would have a duty to discuss the matter?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIENo, my Lords; not until we have managed to get at these very elusive and important facts.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, since at the moment the noble Baroness seems to be without those facts, might it not even be possible that they could help to get at the facts?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I think it is really up to us, as the responsible authority, to do our best to get the facts ourselves.