§ 2.40 p.m.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what action is being taken to increase the number of veterinary surgeons in State service having regard to the arrest of the brucellosis eradication scheme and the increase in bovine tuberculosis.
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, interviews for permanent appointments to the professional grades of the Ministry's Veterinary Service were held in December, 1972, and March, 1973, and it is proposed to hold them quarterly in the future. In addition, the Ministry appoints fee-paid veterinary inspectors. Her Majesty's Government continue to attach great importance to the eradication of brucellosis and tuberculosis
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, I thank the noble Earl for that reply. Did he not hear the former senior veterinary officer at the Ministry, who was recently retired, say on the programme "Farming To-day" on March 31 that the reason why there is a shortage of veterinary officers, in consequence of which the brucellosis scheme is suffering, is because the Government are not paying sufficient; and that we shall not have an adequate service until the salaries of veterinary surgeons are increased? Can the noble Earl tell me what, in his opinion, that statement from such an important person is worth?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I did not hear the statement to which the noble Baroness has referred. It is, of course, up to anyone to make his own comments on what he believes to be the right criteria for payment. I would assure the noble Baroness that the present pay rates were decided by an arbitration tribunal in September, 1972.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, may I ask whether the noble Earl is aware that there was a great shortage of veterinary surgeons many years ago?
520 Time after time that was the reason given to us why we were unable to introduce a brucellosis eradication scheme. Now, only to-day, it was announced on "Farming To-day" that the scheme in Norfolk and Suffolk had ceased to operate. Should not the Government regard it as a matter of great urgency?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I do not think it is a question of the scheme in Norfolk and Suffolk ceasing to operate, but the fact of that area becoming an accredited area in November as opposed to April of this year. The noble Baroness will be aware that the incidence of swine vesicular disease has put an extraordinary burden on the Veterinary Service, and that is the reason why some resources have had to be diverted from other requirements of the Service.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLBut, my Lords, is the noble Earl aware that there was a grave shortage before the outbreak of swine vesicular disease, and that if he will refer to the statement made this morning he will find that what I have said is accurate?
§ BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOODMy Lords, may I ask the noble Earl this question? I understand that the training of a veterinary surgeon is a very long one. Would it be possible for the Ministry to encourage the universities to start training more veterinary surgeons immediately, since the shortage is so acute that it is almost impossible to get anyone to attend to cattle?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I take my noble friend's point. The full complement for the Veterinary Service is 302 and at the moment there are 249 in service and 53 vacancies. It is our desire to have these vacancies filled as soon as possible, but that depends on the number of people presenting themselves.
§ LORD NAPIER AND ETTRICKMy Lords, can my noble friend tell the House, in round figures, what a senior veterinary officer is paid to-day?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, the basic pay of a veterinary officer grade II is £2,301 to £2,943. For a veterinary officer grade I the figures are £2,943 to £3,585 and for a divisional veterinary officer £3,799 to £5,002.
§ LORD WIGGMy Lords, would not the noble Earl agree that it is not only a question of salaries, though that is important, but also that the whole question of veterinary education needs to be examined? I understand that a Government Committee has been sitting for some years, until recently, under the chairmanship of Sir Michael Swann; can the noble Earl tell us when that Committee is going to report?
§ LORD WYNNE-JONESMy Lords, is the noble Earl aware that the fall off in the number of pupils taking science at advanced level in the schools is having a serious effect throughout the whole of the training of specialists—veterinary, medical and other scientific and engineering professions—in the universities?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, that could well be so and I would not argue with the noble Lord, Lord Wynne-Jones, about it. If it is so, this merely aggravates the difficulty of getting a sufficient number of veterinary surgeons from those people who apply for the posts.
LORD INGLEWOODMy Lords, will my noble friend agree, after all this tilting at the veterinary profession, that our veterinary profession has a standard as high as any in the world; and that its achievements over the last few years in improving the general health of our livestock is remarkable?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for his remarks. I agree with him entirely that our veterinary service is quite outstanding. We wish to keep it as good as it always has been.
§ LORD WIGGMy Lords, before making a statement of that kind, would the noble Earl be good enough to go back and examine the facts? Is it not true that in respect of equine 'flu this country has not even attempted to produce a satisfactory vaccine? Is it not common knowledge that veterinary science in this country has fallen right behind that in the countries of the Common Market?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I would not agree with the noble Lord about that. He may be right in respect of an individual vaccine but, with respect to the noble Lord, I would say to him that that should not colour his opinion of the veterinary service as a whole.