HL Deb 05 April 1973 vol 341 cc407-9

3.12 p.m.

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask the Leader of the House whether it is a fact that the handbags of women visitors to the House, but not the pockets of men, are now searched in the interests of security; and if so, what is the logic of this procedure.

THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (EARL JELLICOE)

Yes, my Lords. This is in fact specifically provided for in the Rules which I moved and the House approved on January 31 last. The logic is that all bags may need to be opened for inspection, irrespective of whether they belong to men or to women. The same logic would apply to pockets, irrespective of the sex of the owner of the pocket, if it were decided that the searching of pockets was necessary.

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for his Answer. This is intended as a perfectly serious Question relating to security matters. May I ask whether or not he agrees—and if he does not, would he convince himself by experiment—that it is just as easy, and possibly slightly easier, to carry a grenade in a man's jacket or overcoat pocket than in the average woman's handbag?

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, I was giving a perfectly serious Answer to a perfectly serious Question. I should be glad to go experimenting with the noble Baroness. My Lords, we live in violent times and there are many dangers to which all in society are exposed, include- ing Members of your Lordships' House; and it has been felt—I do not wish to go too far into the question of security—that on the whole it is the unattended package which is likely to present the greatest danger. On the whole, it has been felt that handbags are more likely to be left unattended than trousers.

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

My Lords, does the noble Earl think that a woman leaves her handbag unattended even in your Lordships' House? This is a very serious matter. Will the noble Earl not give some assurance that steps will be taken to see that dangerous weapons are not secreted in the pockets of either sex?

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, I will pay careful attention to what the noble Baroness has said but I think that we have to strike a reasonable balance in the interest of security. Noble Lords will have noticed that our security measures have recently been very stringently tightened up. But I will gladly give an undertaking to keep these matters under review. I am open to suggestions from any Member of your Lordships' House on this particular and very difficult area.

BARONESS STOCKS

My Lords, while it may be true that trousers are unlikely to be left unattended, is it not also true that there are larger and more pockets in overcoats than in trousers?

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords. I think that on the whole that is correct.

LORD HARVEY OF PRESTBURY

My Lords, with a view to saving the lady visitors from any possible embarrassment, will my noble friend consider installing Geiger apparatus as used at airports—which is quicker and more efficient?

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that suggestion. We are a very progressive House and we must move with the times. This is another matter.

BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOE

My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that there is a slight whiff of the male Chauvinistic animal about his replies?

EARL JELLICOE

In which case, my Lords, I deeply regret it and I plead guilty to the noble Baroness.

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that men have eight capacious pockets in their coats and trousers and that a woman has only one handbag? Is this not a blatant case of discrimination?

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, it seems that many ladies have quite capacious pockets in their trousers.

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, is my noble friend satisfied that the security checks on women coming in are adequate?—since I understand that some ladies carry explosives and weapons under their skirts.

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, I will give very careful thought to the implications behind my noble friend's question.

LORD SEGAL

My Lords, will not the Government seriously consider the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Harvey of Prestbury, rather than encourage pickpockets within the precincts of the House?

LORD BROWN

My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that the way in which this Question has been treated has been somewhat discourteous to many ladies in the House?

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, I do not think I am aware of that. If that was the impression which the noble Lord received, I should like to take this opportunity of apologising to the ladies. Most of them, I think, do not share the noble Lord's opinion.

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

We do not need protecting.

LORD ANNAN

My Lords, will the noble Earl care to move from deductive to inductive inferences? Is he aware that in the British Museum since the searching of handbags has been introduced—not for the purpose of seeing whether bombs are concealed but of seeing whether books are concealed—there has been only one complaint from any lady whose handbag has been searched?