HL Deb 03 April 1973 vol 341 cc146-9

2.53 p.m.

THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (EARL JELLICOE)

My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. In so doing, I should perhaps explain that these proposed Amendments to our Standing Orders flow from the recommendations of our Procedure Committee which are embodied in their Report to your Lordships last December, which was approved by this House on March 14. My Lords, I beg to move.

Moved, That the Standing Orders relating to Public Business be amended as follows:

After Standing Order No. 35

Insert the following new Standing Order— 'Short Debates.

35A.—(1) If a Short Debate is continuing at the end of the time allotted to it, the Clerk at the Table shall rise and thereupon the Lord Speaker shall ask the Mover whether or not he wishes to withdraw his Motion. If the Mover does not ask leave to withdraw, or if leave to withdraw is refused, the Lord Speaker shall, notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order No. 18, put the Question forthwith.

(2) If an amendment is moved to a Motion which is the subject of a Short Debate, paragraph (1) shall have effect in relation to the amendment in like manner as it has in relation to the original Motion."

Standing Order No. 49

Line 2, at end insert ("on the recommendation of the Lord Chancellor").

Standing Order No. 61

Leave out Standing Order No. 61 and insert the following new Standing Order— 'Committee of Selection.

61.—(1) At the commencement of each Session the House shall appoint a Committee of Selection consisting of the Chairman of Committees and such other Lords as the House shall name.

(2) The Committee of Selection shall select and propose to the House the names of the Lords to form each Select Committee of the House (except the Committee of Selection it if and any Committee otherwise provided for by statute or by order of the House) and may propose also the name of the Lord who will be the Chairman of such Committee.

(3) Notice shall be given in the Order Paper of any Motion for the naming of Lords proposed by the Committee of Selection to serve on any Committee other than a Select Committee on a Private Bill."— (Earl Jellicoe.)

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, as the noble Earl says, this gives effect to a decision of the House. There is only one point I should like to make on it. I think your Lordships ought to note that this represents a major departure from past practice in that it involves a time rule. Though I believe it is entirely appropriate and valuable to our proceedings that we should have a time rule in this particular instance, I am sure the House will be equally cautious about extending it in any other direction in the future. I just wanted that on the Record.

LORD SLATER

My Lords, may I ask the Minister what the time rule really involves? I happen to be at a loss to understand why such a rule should be introduced. Surely it is left to the responsibility of each Member of this House, when making his speech, as to how long he should speak and when he should end. I think this is asking a little too much of Members of this place, because if this had been raised in another place there would have been hell let loose.

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, I should again say that your Lordships have approved this principle. This recommendation flows from the Report, which was before your Lordships and which was fully debated, in which the so-called short or mini-debate was suggested; and I think that the great majority of your Lordships feel that this experiment has been a success. That is the only self-discipline which it is suggested we should now impose upon ourselves in perpetuating, until your Lordships decide otherwise, this particular form of debate, which I think by common consent has proved to be a useful addition to our procedure.

LORD PLATT

My Lords, the idea of having a two and a half hour debate with no means of drawing it to a close is surely quite absurd.

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, that may very well be the noble Lord's opinion, but I suggest to him that the time to have made those views known was when we in fact debated the Report of the Procedure Committee.

LORD PLATT

My Lords, I am entirely supporting the noble Earl. I am saying that the view of the noble Lord, Lord Slater, must have been based on a misconception of the whole process.

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, it is a most extraordinary abberation on my part not to recognise an ally, and I apologise to the noble Lord for my not having recognised him in the guise of an ally on this particular occasion. But I would not myself have characterised the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Slater, as absurd. I think he was perfectly entitled to put it, although the best time to have discussed this at length would have been when we were discussing the Report of the Procedure Committee. But I hope the noble Lord is satisfied with this particular procedure in this instance. I take the same view as the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, the Leader of the Opposition, that we should be very chary about extending this principle of time limits; but I think that in this particular sphere of the short or mini-debate it has been justified in practice.

LORD SLATER

My Lords, I hope the noble Earl will accept my apology for not raising this matter when it ought to have been raised. If I had, we should not have had to listen to some of the Back-Benchers here saying "Hear, hear…" when an individual got on his feet and asked a question of the noble Earl, who happens to be the Leader of this place and who seeks to give me the answers I should like to have in response to the questions I seek to raise.

On Question, Motion agreed to and ordered accordingly; the said Amendments to be printed.