HL Deb 22 September 1972 vol 335 cc1404-6

11.10 a.m.

BARONESS STOCKS

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in the forthcoming Conference on Northern Ireland, they will have in mind the possibility of withdrawing the Army and leaving the people of that country to settle their problems in their own way.

THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CuLRoss)

My Lords, Her Majesty's Government are prepared at this conference to listen to any views which those attending wish to express ; but if any delegation were to propose, as part of their plan for the future of Northern Ireland, that the Army should be withdrawn, they would be expected to explain how this might be achieved without thereby precipitating further bloodshed and human tragedy in the province.

BARONESS STOCKS

My Lords, can the noble Viscount tell us what section of the Irish public in Northern Ireland, or the Southern Irish Republic, still desire the continued presence of the Army? Is it the Catholics, who throw stones at them, or the Protestants, who throw stones at them? Is it the Southern Irish, who would like to take over the North, or the Ulster volunteers, who would like to be responsible for their own law and order?

VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS

My Lords, the section of the population in Northern Ireland who would like to see the Army stay is the enormous preponderance of the population of 1.5 million who are not engaged, and who do not wish to be engaged, whether they are of Catholic, Protestant or of any other persuasion, in the dreadful acts of terrorism that are going on.

BARONESS STOCKS

My Lords, is the noble Viscount convinced that there has been more law and order in Northern Ireland since the presence of the Army there than there was in the say, fifty preceding years of Stormont rule?

VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS

No, my Lords, I do not suppose that is so. But I am not sure that I understand the connection between that conclusion and the presence of the Army.

LORD PEDDIE

My Lords, can the noble Viscount indicate the precise circumstances which prompted the decision to send troops to Northern Ireland? How far, and to what extent, has that situation changed, or the circumstances and problems accelerated?

VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS

My Lords, it will be appreciated that my noble friend Lord Windlesham is the Minister in this House who knows the details of this matter ; but in August 1969 there were 3,500 members of the Royal Ulster Constabulary and the situation had become so severe that it was thought that they could no longer on their own maintain the law and order to which the population of the Province were entitled. It was for that reason that the British Army came in to assist them in their duties.

LORD CHAMPION

My Lords, once the Army was put in and the situation had developed to the point at which it has now reached, if we attempted to withdraw the Army it would result in a massacre. It is the only force that can hope to maintain anything like a situation which we would regard as being desirable. It is true that much has still to be done and will be done. Eventually we shall have to withdraw the forces. But for the present I would not dream of suggesting it.

VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS

My Lords, the sombre facts are precisely those that the noble Lord has set forh, and I am very glad to have his confirmation.