§ 3.7 p.m.
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government, in view of the murder of an Israeli diplomat at the Israeli Embassy, what steps they propose to take to protect the Embassy and its staff and with regard to security in the postal services against the transmission of explosive devices.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS)My Lords, Her Majesty's Government were quick to express their horror at this cowardly outrage and their sympathy in messages which my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs has sent to the Israeli Foreign Minister and the Israeli Ambassador. The whole House will join me in those sentiments.
§ SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Hear hear!
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSThe Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis has reviewed the arrangements for the protection of the Israeli Embassy in the light of this outrage, and appropriate steps will continue to be taken. I am sure that your Lordships will understand if I say that the effectiveness of these arrangements would be jeopardized if details were made public. If the Post Office had reason to believe that an explosive device was being sent through the mails they would naturally I take the necessary action. The Post Office cannot themselves systematically 1125 identify all suspicious packages; but your Lordships may be aware that further letter bombs addressed to the members of the staff of the Israeli Embassy were detected last night before delivery.
LORD JANNERMy Lords, may I express my thanks to the noble Viscount for what he has said? I need hardly say that I, too, am sure that all Members of the House are deeply concerned about the tragedy that occurred. But may I ask whether it is not time now that we sought international action against the kind of villainous methods which are being used by some people who are being harboured in certain places and by certain nations and whose actions are being commended by those nations? Is it not possible for us at this stage to realise that what has happened at the Israeli Embassy does not affect purely the Israeli Embassy; that it affects the employees, the Post Office people in all countries—indeed civilisation as a whole? May I ask whether the noble Viscount will consult with the other Departments of State as to what can be done speedily in the direction of international action, and whether he will take particular steps to see that those who come from the countries that harbour these criminals shall not be allowed to enter this country, that those who have entered the country already from those countries are carefully watched, and that organisations started by them are stopped?
LORD JANNERYes, my Lords. Such organisations as have already opened offices in this country should be carefully watched and stopped, if possible.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, I do not think I can do justice to the international negotiations that are going on, though I believe that there are some at the present moment in train, at any rate with the members of the new Ten. My noble friend Lady Tweedsmuir is sitting here listening, so she will have noted the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Janner. The most immediate response to this affair has been that there is close and instant communication between our police forces and the police forces in the Netherlands; indeed, there 1126 is a great deal of liaison between all the police forces in Europe on this matter, and it is very successful, too. I hope that in this case it will be successful again. It has certainly worked well in the past.
As for the entry and continued stay of nationals from countries which may be thought to be responsible for this sort of action, I have repeatedly answered questions about this matter. Perhaps the most definitive answer was given by my I right honourable friend in another place on July 27. At that time he said that there were grave difficulties about enforcing any legislation which might be brought in—this is still a matter that is under consideration—to deal with organisations. The point that I have attempted to make repeatedly in this House, as has my right honourable friend in another place, is that we have powers now to deal with individuals. We have powers if necessary to prevent their coming here, and we have powers to see that they go if they start engaging in acts of terrorism. At the end of July my right honourable friend said that he would not hesitate to use these powers to the full. It is, after all, individuals who do these things; it is not the organisations under which they operate. It must be people who act; an organisation cannot, as such, act. I have spoken to my right honourable friend again to-day and I can assure the House that his determination to use these powers to the full has not weakened.
§ LORD WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, is it not a grave affront to people in this I country who are not members of the Jewish community to know that organisations such as the Palestine Liberation Organisation can, if they so desire, set up premises in this country? Is it not really disgraceful—and I do not direct that remark to the noble Viscount who has just spoken—for a responsible Minister of Her Majesty's Government even to imply that there is difficulty in preventing people from setting up in this country organisations which are really an affront. If we can control individuals we ought to be able to control the actions of such individuals if they want to set up such premises.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, I am not certain to what extent it is an affront for the P.L.O., as such, with its declared aims, to set up an office. 1127 It has not yet done so and I am not certain how far the noble Lord is right about that particular organisation being an affront. There may be more than one view on this question and I believe that one has to be balanced in what one says. So far as the difficulties are concerned, it is by no means a disgrace that a responsible Minister should say that there are difficulties. The difficulties are legion. They are very invidious difficulties and I promise the noble Lord that the more one looks at them the more difficult they become.
§ LORD WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, may I ask the noble Viscount whether the Government are not aware that the Palestine Liberation Organisation is made up of five organisations, each of which has been responsible for terrorist activities in different parts of the world?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, I do not think it is made up of any organisations. The information I have is that it is an organisation on its own account and that it has affiliated to it other organisations in one form or another. That is the situation. In any event, at the moment this is hypothetical, because there is no office of the P.L.O. in this country.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, may I associate my noble friends with the expressions of horror that have been uttered by the noble Viscount? May I further say that I appreciate deeply what he has said about the difficulties in the use of the powers which Her Majesty's Government already have, and may I further say that this would seem to be eminently a matter to which we might return and discuss in greater detail on another occasion?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. If I may just correct him, there are no difficulties in using the powers that we already have—none whatever. The powers to deal with individuals are well known and will be used. It was the taking of powers to deal with organisations to which I was referring when I said that there are difficulties.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, the noble Viscount is spoiling his own case. Of course there are difficulties in exercis- 1128 ing powers, otherwise the sender of the first letter bomb would have been stopped. The legal powers are there; it is the physical use of them that proves difficult on occasions.
§ LORD GLADWYNMy Lords, in likewise condemning this further abomination, the authors of which I fear can scarcely be doubted, may I say that personally I feel sure that the authorities will take every possible precaution against its repetition. More particularly, the Post Office officials concerned who discovered the other letter bombs, at considerable risk to themselves, are to be warmly congratulated. Naturally I am glad to hear, and I note with satisfaction, that Her Majesty's Government will seek all possible means of reducing the number of these outrages by international action, at whatever level.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord and I entirely associate myself with what he said about those in the Post Office who have found these letter bombs.
§ LORD POPPLEWELLMy Lords, while one appreciates that action cannot be taken against organisations, is the Minister aware that grave concern is developing in the country because of the until now apparently ineffectual steps that have been taken against the hijackers, the murderers of innocent athletes at Munich, and those who are now coming to murder people to whom we have given protection? The Governments of the countries to which these people belong are applauding them as being heroes. We all sincerely hope that the Government will take serious note of this set-up and will try to get international action of a more concrete form than at present to deal with the type of thuggery and assassination that is taking place.
§ LORD STRANGEMy Lords, will the noble Viscount not agree that this is a subject for a long and interesting debate and not a Question.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, I think the noble Lord, Lord Strange, has a point of substance. Nevertheless, I ought to answer the noble Lord, Lord Popplewell. Yes, the Government view this matter with the gravest concern, and the sort of thing that is concrete evidence of that is the proposal that 1129 my noble friend Lady Tweedsmuir told the House about last week; the practical proposal that has been made to ICAO about countries who harbour, and whose Governments support, hijacking. That is the sort of thing that we can do practically, and that proposal has progressed further in ICAO. There are many steps to go through but we are still pressing hard for that, and there are other international negotiations going on at the same time.
§ LORD RHODESMy Lords, can the Minister categorically deny that this terorist organisation has premises in London?
§ LORD RHODESThe Palestine Liberation Organisation.
§ LORD WIGGMy Lords, is the noble Viscount aware that this senseless and wicked practice did not start this week —that, for example, the brother of my Conservative opponent in Dudley received a volume of Shakespeare which contained a time bomb sent by the Israelis; that Mr. John Freeman, when he was a Minister, received a similar device; that on innumerable occasions similar devices were sent to the Foreign Office addressed to Mr. Ernest Bevin; and that there are many people in this country, officials of the Crown, who have been similarly mutilated when it suited the Israelis to pursue a terrorist policy and that Her Majesty's Government are to be applauded on every occasion on which they seek conciliation which will bring this senseless murder, first by one side and then the other, to an end?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, in an attempt to arm myself so as to be able to answer supplementary questions on this matter I inquired into instances of this sort of thing having happened. The noble Lord, Lord Wigg, is right. There was a substantial outbreak just after the end of the war and perhaps also in the early 'fifties. I am happy to say that more recently there have been very few instances, albeit the few have been nasty ones. However, the 1130 noble Lord is quite right in what he says, though one must remember that that happened something like 20 years ago. On his general point, however, I agree with him.
LORD JANNERMy Lords, is the noble Viscount aware that at the time of the acts to which the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, referred the authorities in Israel expressed condemnation of those acts, as I did in the House of Commons? This will be within the recollection of those who were in the House in those years. Is he further aware that this is an entirely different situation to-day, because what is happening now as threatening the whole world and not Israel alone? May I remind the noble Viscount that if efforts against these terrible people when they attack Israel are relaxed, it represents a relaxation of efforts against similar acts, some of which we have witnessed, throughout the world? May I again urge the noble Viscount, bearing in mind that the acts to which reference has been made occurred in 1948 or 1950 and were condemned by the Israeli authorities at the time, speedily to see that international action is taken to protect innocent people as well as those who are being accused politically—
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, before my noble friend answers the point put by the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, may I say that I think it would hardly be right for me to judge the correct comparison between what happened at that time—truthfully, I do not myself remember—and what is going on now. At the international level I am perfectly certain that Her Majesty's Government wish to act as forcefully and speedily as possible to stop these activities. I must at the same time emphasise that, so far as the recipient of a bomb is concerned, it does not very much matter from whom it has come if it blows him up. We must stop people receiving them.
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, in response to my noble friend Lord Selkirk, and following the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, some speakers ago, and also in response to what the noble Lord, Lord Strange, said, 1131 I suggest that it would be right at this point, as 29 speakers have indicated their desire to speak in the Third Reading debate of very greatest importance which is shortly to take place, and as there is still another Statement to come, to pass from this Question. I appreciate that these are grave matters, and it may be that we should return to this general question of terrorism either during the spill-over period in October or later on, and I shall be glad to pursue that possibility through the usual channels.