§ 3.8 p.m.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, I rise to ask Her Majesty's Government a Question of which I have given them Private Notice: namely, whether they will make a Statement about recent developments in Uganda.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, since my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor made a Statement on Thursday last, the House will be aware that reports have been received of an alleged incursion into Uganda from Tanzania, and of fighting in the South-West of Uganda.
Early on Sunday morning the Ugandan Government announced that the British had a plan to invade Uganda and that the incursion might be the beginning of this plan. The announcement claimed that there were many British spies in the country. Her Majesty's Government immediately denied that there was any connection between Britain and the alleged incursion, or that there was a British plan to invade Uganda. I should like to repeat formally in this House that Her Majesty's Government had no prior knowledge of operations now taking place in South-West Uganda, were not involved in them in any way, either in their planning or execution; and that we certainly have no plan to invade Uganda.
723 We have no firm information about what is happening in the South-West. There has been some fighting in the town of Mbarara, but it is not clear who has been fighting whom. Elsewhere outside Kampala, our most recent information is that all is quiet. In Kampala itself 19 British subjects were detained yesterday. As soon as our High Commissioner learnt about the arrests, he protested in the strongest possible terms. Since then 16 of those detained, including all the women and children, were released.
There have been some other incidents in the city. Road blocks were set up yesterday on the main exit roads, and Europeans were being stopped, searched and interrogated at these points. In this uneasy situation the High Commissioner is advising all British residents in Uganda to stay at home. We have been assured that there is no question that the British were being singled out, but I regret to say that we have since had an indirect message from the Ugandan Minister of Foreign Affairs repeating the allegation that Britain was deeply involved in the present situation in Uganda. Therefore, my Lords, I must say once again that this allegation is completely without foundation, and we hold the Ugandan Government entirely responsible for the safety of British subjects in Uganda.
Meanwhile, the first of the special supplementary flights taking Asian United Kingdom passport holders out of Uganda left last night and we hope that the other supplementary flights that are being provided by the commercial airlines will continue without incident.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, we are much obliged to the noble Baroness for that Statement, even though, inevitably, she was not able to add very much to our knowledge of what is going on. I am sure that she is aware that the entire House shares the view of Her Majesty's Government that the statements about there being many spies in Uganda, and other such charges, are completely absurd. It is tragic that British subjects are now having to be advised to stay in their homes in a Commonwealth country, bearing in mind that the United Kingdom Government were one of the first, if not the first, to recognise General Amin's Government.
724 May I ask the noble Baroness whether she will continue to keep the House informed this week about developments? Since we are here, this is both a right and a convenient way of keeping Parliament and the country informed of the precise position and the views of Her Majesty's Government. I am sure that the Government must feel extremely anxious about the present situation. While I echo what my noble friend Lord Shepherd said about being cautious, the situation is so serious that, without their spelling out the steps that may have to be taken, may I ask Her Majesty's Government whether—and this will give the lie to the charge that this is an attempt to prevent Asians coming here—they will, if necessary, speed up the withdrawal? We may find that the Asians who are British subjects will be in the position of being refugees, even though technically they are not.
Will the Government tell us later, if they cannot tell us now, what steps they are taking, both themselves and with other Governments, the Commonwealth Governments, President Nyerere and, in particular, the Governments of the O.A.U., at the United Nations, to which the matter has been referred? Will the noble Baroness agree that it is tragic that we do not have the "bush fire" force in the United Nations which at one time it was hoped would be created to deal with events in the Congo and elsewhere, which did not lead to encouraging feelings. We should be grateful for any information that the noble Baroness can continue to give us.
LORD HENLEYMy Lords, my noble friends, too, fully support the action of Her Majesty's Government in protesting to the Ugandan Government against the unwarranted assertions about our involvement in this situation and also for obtaining the release of the majority of the British subjects. Underlining the importance of getting all the United Kingdom Asians out before November 7, before they are put into camps and subjected to further outrages, may I ask whether we could not also—and this arises from what the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, said—try to get the support of those countries in particular which are giving aid to Uganda to force Uganda to 725 moderate their treatment of the Asians who are leaving?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Shackle-ton, and the noble Lord, Lord Henley, very much for the general support that they have given in this very serious situation. If it is convenient to the House, and with the blessing of the Leader of the House, I shall be glad to keep the House informed this week on what is a very swiftly moving situation. As my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor said, we have been in touch with over 50 other Governments and we have had very useful discussions over the past week with the Indian Government. We hope to make an announcement about this shortly. To the question of the noble Lord, Lord Henley, I would say that the seven Governments, who have already offered to take some of these British passport holders who have given a preference to going to those countries, have been most helpful, and, as I say, we hope to make a Statement shortly about the Indian position.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, in welcoming the Statement of the noble Baroness, may I ask her whether it is not the case that President Nyerere of Tanzania has from the first denounced the racial policies of General Amin, and he has denied sending a force into Uganda? Anyone who knows the area will be aware that Uganda has a very open frontier and the present situation may have arisen from the fact that dissident Ugandans who left Uganda as refugees may now have gone back over the frontier. Is not that a possible explanation for the suggestion that there has been an incursion from Tanzania? May I ask the noble Baroness a question with regard to British nationals? Many of us have friends in Uganda. Are steps being taken to maintain their security in view of the very difficult situation which has arisen? May I also ask whether the noble Baroness will accept a suggestion which has been made before that a Commonwealth conference should be held covering the situation in Uganda, with delegates including some from the African countries, Kenya, Tanzania and Zambia, which disagree with the policies 726 of General Amin? This conference could be held with a view to bringing pressure to obtain a change in General Amin's policies.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, of course I am aware that the Tanzanian Government have denied any involvement in this situation. As I have said, the situation is constantly moving and is very unclear. That is why I regret that I cannot give precise details to the House. So far as British nationals are concerned, as I said in the Statement, our High Commissioner has advised our own nationals to stay at home so far as possible and not do anything which could in any way be regarded as provocative. The British community have not been formally advised to send out their wives and families, but some of them have already done so. If the High Commissioner thinks that such action is necessary he will so advise them. Naturally we will do our best in every possible way to try to secure their safety. On the point about a Constitutional Conference, as my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor said, we have already been in touch with over 50 Governments and in this swiftly moving situation we feel that direct contact is probably better than a Constitutional Conference.
§ 3.18 p.m.
§ BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOEMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness a question with regard to the safety of British nationals? One of our greatest anxieties is that in Uganda they are so much more widely scattered than in most of the African countries. There may be some need for protection on the way to and from Kampala, and so on. With regard to the safety of the United Kingdom Asians, could not Her Majesty's Government, as an immediate help in this situation, offer those who have a proper permit from the Ugandan Government to leave to process them either in this country or in some intermediate place—anything so that their safety can be guaranteed and the concentration camps avoided?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, so far as safety in outlying districts is concerned, this is one of the main problems. Contact 727 with the area where the fighting is taking place is tenuous and in some cases nonexistent. We certainly have this point very much in mind. So far as the clearing of those who wish to come to Britain is concerned, the High Commissioner at present has cleared around 8,000 people. Those were the original people who had hoped to come here. We are now starting to clear those who are entitled to British passports. At the moment we think that the Ugandan Government are probably clearing them at about the same rate as ourselves; we hope that is the case.
§ BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOEMy Lords, I am sorry, but I think that noble Lords on this side of the House would like to add a further question. As it has taken so long for the British authorities to clear those Asians already in the pipe-line, could not that process be speeded up? As soon as they have their Ugandan permits could they not be got out of the country and the rest of the processing take place in an intermediate place or, if necessary, here?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEI think that at the moment we are proceeding with all speed, as far as the Ugandan authorities are concerned as well. As I said, there are about 16 extra flights a week and these will be studied every week to see whether more are required; because I quite agree with the noble Baroness that we want to get as many out as possible as quickly as possible.