§ 2.43 p.m.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government if they will state the total amount for the last four years disbursed under all headings of aid subvention or loan to, 199 respectively, Uganda, Rhodesia, Kenya, Tanzania and Zambia.
TILE MINISTER OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELIIELVIE)My Lords, total disbursements of official development assistance for the last four years were:
£ million Uganda … … … 16.296 Rhodesia … … … 0.566 Kenya … … … 42.639 Tanzania … … … 7.749 Zambia … … … 24.448
§ Assistance of £11.517 million was also given to the East African Community.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, those are massive flames, which take a little time to assimilate, though they bring into relief the fact that the drain on the "begging bowl" by Rhodesia was singularly low compared with the other African countries that the noble Baroness mentions. Can she now give the assurance that all aid of any character to Uganda, by way of subvention or discussion of a further loan, is now suspended?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, if it is a question of new aid to Uganda, the £10 million loan has, as I think the House will know, been placed in suspense, but not all aid to Uganda has been ended. In the current financial year about £1 million on capital projects already approved is still being spent under 1966–68 loans, and approximately £1.8 million on salaries of technical assistance experts and supplements for British personnel in the public service and Makerere University, and about £0.25 million on training in this country.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, can the Minister give any reason why, in view of the action taken by that country headed by a rebellion-installed dictator, we have not taken the natural step of cutting off, for the present anyhow, all aid, as an indication of our indignation at the treatment we have received?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, to give one example, of the £1 million on capital pro- 200 jeets approved under the 1966–68 loans, to which I referred, about half represents payments due to British suppliers. I would suggest to the House that this payment should go on.
§ BARONESS GAITSKELLMy Lords, would the noble Baroness not agree that Generals Amin may come and Generals Amin may go, and that we should not forget the poor people of Uganda who have to suffer under his Administration?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I am certain that everyone in this House is very well aware of what the noble Baroness has said. Perhaps I should say that it is expected that there will be a full Statement on the question of the Ugandan Asians, probably to-morrow.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, in the light of what the noble Baroness has just said, may I say that I understood that there was to be a Statement this afternoon. There appears to have been a change, certainly without informing me, and I was directly involved in replying to that Statement. However, we will leave it there. Can the noble Baroness confirm that a Statement will be made either to-morrow or certainly this week?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEYes, my Lords, I can certainly confirm that it will be made to-morrow. I had understood that it had been communicated through the usual channels that the Statement was to be made to-morrow.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness whether she is aware, in view of the fact that one of these grants is to Makerere University, that the students of that university have protested very strongly against the racialist policy of General Amin? May I ask her this broader question. Can she give us the total amount which is received from those territories in interest, dividends, and profits of an accumulated character every year by investors in this country, and which is estimated to be nearly three times as much as the aid given annually?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIENo, my Lords, I could not do that without notice. I was aware of the protest by the students of 201 Makerere University. I would only say that I think that in the course of capital investment in a country such as Uganda, a very great deal of benefit is brought to Uganda itself.
§ LORD HANKEYMy Lords, arising out of the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, would the House be correct in thinking that the figures that the noble Baroness gave included private aid as well as official aid; or is this only official aid, and must the figures of private aid be added to get the correct total'?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, the figures I gave were in reply to the Question on the Order Paper, and refer only to official aid.
§ LORD DAVIES OF LEEKMy Lords, anent the noble Baroness's answer to the House, would the noble Baroness also kindly emphasise the fact that those of us who have seen our aid at work in leprosy hospitals in other parts of Africa and Asia know that the leaders of those countries appreciate this aid, and that it is not just a one-way traffic? It is of vital help to those who, in Britain, sometimes do honest business with those countries. In a malicious and malevolent world this at least is an example of when, by following certain Christian principles, we are able to help at a time like this.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I entirely agree with the noble Lord.
§ LORD SEGALMy Lords, has the noble Baroness noted that Malawi has been omitted from tile noble Lord's shopping list? Can she state the amount of aid which the British Government have given to Malawi during the last four years?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, the Question on the Order Paper to which I was asked to reply did not refer to Malawi.
§ BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOEMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness whether she is aware that many of us on this side of the House consider aid not as a dole to a particular country or, indeed, as something to be withdrawn in revenge for bad behaviour, because anything which eradicates poverty benefits the world as a whole? 202 This is the way in which we hope that aid will be thought of in general.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I think that that is the feeling of all who have experience of the disbursement of official aid. But on the question of new official aid, at this moment we do not think it might be spent to the greatest benefit to Uganda.