HL Deb 26 October 1972 vol 335 cc2250-3

11.12 a.m.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether any discussions have taken place between them and the Government of France on the subject of a European nuclear deterrent; and whether the West German Government have participated in such discussions and the U.S.A. Government have been kept informed.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE (LORD CARRINGTON)

My Lords, only to the extent that we and the French have agreed, and have both announced publicly on several occasions, that the problem of Anglo-French nuclear collaboration is one for the future.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, if that is the extent of the discussions and they are limited in character, may I ask the noble Lord why in a recent speech he referred to the possibility, as I understood it, of a European nuclear capability? Would he not regard that language, in the general circumstances obtaining in Europe, East and West, as somewhat dangerous and provocative? And has he considered the possibility of East Germany adopting a nuclear capability and what that would mean in the European connotation?

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, I do not pretend to foresee what kind of European Defence Community may arise in the next twenty years, but one has to bear in mind that Europe will he one of the largest and probably the richest Community in the world, and it seems to me that it is very unlikely to abandon the nuclear defence that it has at the present time.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, the noble Lord will appreciate that I fully recognise his responsibility in defence matters and how, from time to time, it is necessary for him to offer an observation, even if it ills of a speculative character. But would he not consider, before making statements of this character, permitting your Lordships' House to have a discussion so that our views might be ventilated on this important topic? He will bear in mind the SALT talks which are now proceeding. In those circumstances, one must be very cautious.

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, I suppose that in the last two and a half years I have made scores of speeches on defence, and particularly on European defence, and I have said on a number of occasions the same as I said at Blackpool. We have had a number of debates in your Lordships' House on defence, and there have been numerous occasions on which the noble Lord could have raised the matter.

LORD SHACKLETON

But how often, my Lords, has the noble Lord himself, on a highly public occasion, announced what is a fundamental proposal in the defence field, obviously without consultation with the Germans, because we know that they were embarrassed by it, and probably, since it was at his Party Conference, without consultation with his own Department, who were also embarrassed by it?

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, the noble Lord is, as usual, wrong. None of these things is true. I do not think the noble Lord can have read my speech. Perhaps I can send him a copy and then he will see how wide of the mark he is.

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, the noble Lord has said that my remarks are not true. May I say that I regard his remarks as untrue?

BARONESS GAITSKELL

My Lords, would it not be better for the whole world, if, instead of Britain and France considering a European nuclear deterrent, Britain and France should each give up their nuclear weapons and reduce their nuclear capacity?

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, I think it would be better for all of us if we did not have these things. This is, after all, the object of our foreign and defence policy; but I do not think that I should like to see unilateral disarmament on the part of this country.

LORD GLADWYN

My Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that owing to the obvious inability of any nuclear Power to use or to threaten to use nuclear weapons against another nuclear Power on a first strike, the so-called Anglo-French deterrent, whether combined or uncombined, and whether strategic or tactical, will be totally useless unless we can organise a standard conventional defence?

THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (EARL JELLICOE)

My Lords, perhaps I may enter a rather formal caveat here. It is now an accepted rule of your Lordships' House that we do not read supplementary questions.

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, I should very much like on the proper occasion to answer the supplementary question of the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, but it goes very much wider than the original Question.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, for the purpose of the Record, and that alone, may I ask the noble Lord whether he will be kind enough to produce the evidence that in any previous debate in this House we have discussed precisely and specifically the possibility of an Anglo-French nuclear deterrent independent of—I repeat, independent of—the United States?

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, I did not say that; the noble Lord must have misunderstood. I said that there were a number of occasions when the noble Lord had an opportunity to do so.

BARONESS GAITSKELL

My Lords, may I point out that I did not suggest that Britain alone should give up the nuclear deterrent. I suggested that Britain and France should do so.

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, I would rather that Britain and France, and Russia, the United States, China and all the rest should do so. But I do not think that just two out of five is a good idea.

THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the use of the word British "is preferable to that of" Anglo"? We are talking about the Unied Kingdom and not merely England.

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, I do not know any way of putting it more succinctly. If I have offended my noble friend, I apologise.

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, is it not a fact that there was a Statement (or perhaps it was an Answer) given by the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, in regard to the visit of the Prime Minister to President Pompidou to the effect that there had been no discussions about a joint nuclear force between England and France? In the light of what the noble Lord has said, can he say when these discussions started?

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, I would ask the noble Lord to read my Answer. What I said was that there have been discussions only to the extent that we and France have agreed and announced that the problem of Anglo-French nuclear collaboration is one for the future.