§ 2.50 p.m.
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether it is their intention to make provision for the issuing of poll cards under the rules for local elections for the first and subsequent elections for the new district and county councils.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS)My Lords, when the Local Government Bill is law, it is intended that the new election rules to be made under it should prescribe the issue of official poll cards at all elections of councillors for principal areas after April 1, 1974. I recognise the case for their issue at the first elections in 1973, but much of the information they should give would 1540 not then be available. I think it is better to introduce the new arrangements when they can be given a proper start.
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, I thank the noble Viscount for that reply. Would he not agree, however, that whatever the need for and value of poll cards, that need and value will be greater at the first rather than at subsequent elections? Would the Minister not agree that whatever difficulties may be involved, every candidate standing for election will have to overcome them if the electorate is to be made aware of the date, place and time of polling?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, these are matters which have been widely discussed and I am aware of the anxieties about them. The sort of consideration which has prompted us to decide against taking this step next year is that while one appreciates that some of the information which the noble Lord has mentioned could be put on poll cards, it seems to be singularly lacking in the sense if one cannot give the elector's number, the name of the authority for which the elections are being held and the name of the ward in which he is voting. These cards, at any rate in some cases, would have to be printed before this information could be available, and this would, we think, stultify the whole exercise, because the information which the elector would want would not be on the poll card.
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, is the noble Viscount aware that that is contrary to the advice which was offered by the Conference on Local Government Electoral Law? Did not that Conference indicate quite clearly that there was a case for poll cards, even without all the information? Having regard to the dates of the elections, may I ask the noble Viscount to say whether it would be really impossible to overcome the difficulties?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSYes, my Lords, certainly in some places. In relation to the first part of the noble Lord's supplementary, we appreciate that the Conference thought to the contrary. We disagree with the Conference on this point for the reasons I have given.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, as the Government have changed their 1541 policies on so many matters, may I ask the noble Viscount please to get them to change their policy on this one? When he says that there would not be time for the printing to be done, is he aware that it does not take more than a couple of days to print, say, 50,000 poll cards'? Is he not further aware that as some districts are being merged, many of the names of the candidates will be strange to local residents, this being another reason why at the first elections, which may be the most difficult and complicated of the lot, these cards should be issued?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, I understand the difficulties but I am informed that the printing problems could not be overcome in so simple a way as the noble Lord suggests, and for these reasons the Government will not change their mind about this matter.
§ LORD HALEMy Lords, if the elections are not to be conducted in accordance with the existing law, may I ask the noble Viscount to say whether the results will be invalidated by the failure to carry out that law? In view of the wide split in the Conservative Party at the moment, is it not necessary for people going to local elections to know which candidate is a Powellite and which a Heathite and to have all the available information to record their votes on a matter about which wide differences of opinion seem to be developing?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, I am not certain that the confusions that might confront the electorate are confined solely to Conservatives. I am equally certain that the elections will not be carried out in a way that is contrary to the existing law.
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, I am sorry to have to press the Minister on this matter, but it is one of considerable public concern. In view of the fact that the register of electors will be issued on February 15 of next year and the first elections will not take place until April, can it seriously be suggested that the printing problems could not be overcome? I urge the noble Viscount to request his right honourable friend to have another look at this matter.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, I can certainly request my 1542 right honourable friend to have another look at the matter and I assure the noble Lord that I will do so. I do not want in any way to be obstructive. We have tried our best to see how this could be done because we appreciate the feelings that exist on both sides of this House and in another place and those expressed by the Conference. This was the best information we could get on the question of printing, which I think is done locally as opposed to centrally. These were the difficulties, as I have explained them, which confronted us. If there is some simple solution which I have so far missed, I shall of course be glad to be made aware of it.
§ LORD PARGITERMy Lords, will the noble Viscount please look at the matter again? Is he aware that in normal elections' it is usual for the Parties to issue poll cards and that the machinery has worked smoothly in the past, even when they have not been issued? His decision is likely to present a difficulty not only for the local authorities but for the Parties and everyone concerned in the elections. His decision will—
§ LORD PARGITERIs the noble Viscount aware that his decision will present difficulties not only for the local authorities but for the Parties and everyone concerned with the elections? Will the Government try to make a special effort to have poll cards issued? I am not asking for an immediate reply from the noble Viscount.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, will the noble Viscount, if he has power to do so, cause the Government to get in touch with the Master Printers' Association to see whether any real difficulty exists about the printing of poll cards in time?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, I do not think it is for the Government to do that because I understand that this is done locally by the local authorities concerned. We may be able to direct the attention of those local authorities to the facility which the noble Lord mentioned, but I do not think it 1543 is for the Government to give a direction in this matter. However, we will bear in mind what the noble Lord has said.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, may I ask the noble Viscount to reconsider what he said about its not being for the Government to act in this matter? While recognising that local authorities will have to do the printing, may I ask the Minister to bear in mind that the Government have a responsibility in this matter and that the consideration which he promised to give should not simply be that of dismissing the subject on the ground that it is not one for the Government? Perhaps on further reflection he may wish to take a greater measure of responsibility than his last answer suggested.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, if the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, will look in to-morrow's OFFICIAL REPORT at what I said he will see that I was not quite so cavalier in my dismissal. I believe that the primary responsibility in this matter rests with the local authorities—or perhaps I should say "shadow" local authorities—concerned. They would no doubt listen to my advice, but I do not think we could actually direct them in the matter of the local authority elections. I will of course take note of everything that has been said in this exchange and I do not think there is anything between us on the due share of responsibility in this matter.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, is the noble Viscount not aware that it is not unusual for a Department which is not willing to take some action to ask the Minister to tell the House that the printing problems are insuperable?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, I have not been a Minister long enough for this to have happened to me before.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, if, as the noble Viscount said, this is the responsibility of the local authorities or shadow local authorities, should not the Government issue a circular to those shadow authorities telling them that they are able, if they wish, to issue poll cards of their own volition?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, I do not think I can promise 1544 to issue a circular until I have followed up some of the other points that have been made by noble Lords during the course of this exchange. Whether or not a circular would be the best way to proceed I do not know at this stage and I should like to consider that matter.