§ BARONESS MASHAM OF ILTONMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government—
§ (1) How many social service departments of local authorities do not have access for the disabled, especially those in wheel chairs;
§ (2) How many social service departments which do not have such access were built after the passing of the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act 1970; and
§ (3) What steps they are taking to enforce Section 4 of the Act.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, local authorities are not required to make returns about this matter, and so there is no general information available on the first two parts of the Question. With regard to the third part, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Environment intends to continue providing local authorities with information about designing for the disabled, and at the same time to remind them of previous circulars and publications about the provisions of the Act.
§ BARONESS MASHAM OF ILTONMy Lords, while thanking the Minister for his Answer, may I ask him whether he is aware that the Kendal social service department, which was opened in July of this year, has its offices on the first floor, without a lift, and uses the ground floor for storage space? Further, does not the Minister think that if these Government offices do not provide appro- 1244 priate access they are not meeting their quota by way of the number of disabled people they employ?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I was not aware of the case which the noble Baroness has quoted, about Kendal: I will indeed take note of it. I would remind your Lordships that many health authorities in fact have a mobile service which can go out to help people who are disabled, without their having to come into the offices. But as to the other point, I will indeed take note.
§ BARONESS MASHAM OF ILTONMy Lords, if a firm employs more than 20 people it is supposed to have a quota of disabled people employed; so perhaps the Kendal social services department is not employing any disabled people.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I take the noble Baroness s point. But it is rather wide of the original Question, and, frankly, I am not briefed to give the exact answer on it.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, can the noble Lord say whether the architects who work for local government are instructed that when considering their designs they should take into account the needs of the disabled: and, furthermore, in the interests of the aged, that they should not construct more steps than are absolutely necessary?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I can assure the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, that since the Act was passed no building has been built with regard to which the architects have not taken full account of the requirements of the Act. There are one or two points, of which the noble Baroness is obviously aware, to be borne in mind. For instance, fire requirements sometimes conflict with what would otherwise be desirable for the disabled. But the architects are aware of this, and we in the Department of the Environment are quite happy that from now on, as from the passing of the Act, things are all right in new buildings.
§ BARONESS LEE OF ASHERIDGEMy Lords, would the Minister agree that, ideally, we should like all offices to be equipped in such a way that the disabled can be looked after with dignity and 1245 comfort? Would he also agree that there is no excuse at all if modern buildings are not equipped with lifts? But since there are some difficulties, as we all know, with ancient types of buildings, will be at least make sure that the standards of courtesy which at the moment apply in the best local authorities apply to all? For instance, as the Minister has said, there is no reason why a service should not be taken to the disabled; or, when the disabled come to an office which is without a lift or other facilities, why there should not be a sympathetic attendant who can go down to street level and deal with them there without discomfort to them.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I am very happy to be able to agree with every single statement that the noble Baroness, Lady Lee of Asheridge, has made. I am sure that local authorities will also take note of what she has said.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, again I doubt very much whether local authorities will read exactly what my noble friend has just said. Will Her Majesty's Government ensure that the spirit which the noble Lord has accepted is passed on to local authorities and that they try to do something about it?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONYes, my Lords; I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, that that will be done. I can also assure him that new building regulations are to go out shortly. There is a Yellow Paper, as the noble Lord is aware.
LORD INGLEWOODMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that in this field local authorities are often under some difficulty? They are under instructions from the Government to prepare their budgets allowing only a very small increase for the fall in the value of money, and frequently have new duties such as these imposed on them in the middle of the financial year, which often can be carried out only at the expense of cutting some other service, since no additional funds may be available. Furthermore, without any comment on the merits of this particular building in Kendal, may I ask my noble friend whether he is aware that Kendal is a most enlightened place?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I shall say merely that we will take note of what the noble Lord has said. With regard to imposing liabilities on local authorities, I think these matters are not usually of great expense. They are small matters which, if they are reasonable and practical, as laid down in Section 4, can be done.
LORD INGLEWOODMy Lords, is not my noble friend aware that those who are chairmen of social services committees do not consider that all the additional duties imposed on them by the Government over the last 18 months or more are small matters which can be carried through just by shuffling their funds around, and that social services committees of major local authorities have been in very considerable difficulties?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, where matters of the disabled are concerned, a very small amount of effort can bring a very large increase of comfort and aid to the disabled.
§ BARONESS MASHAM OF ILTONMy Lords, at Kendal, the ground floor is used for storage. Why was it not used for the offices of the social service department?
LORD MOWBRAY AND STOUR TONI My Lords, I do not know the exact answer to that question, but I will take note of what the noble Baroness has said.