§ 3.19 p.m.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what proposals they have made, in association with six other NATO Powers, for discussions with the Soviet Union and Communist Governments on the reduction of armed forces in Central Europe and whether any reply has been received to this invitation.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, Her Majesty's Government, in association with the Governments of the United States, Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, the Federal German Republic and Canada have recently proposed to the Governments of the Soviet Union, Poland, Czechoslovakia and Hungary that exploratory talks on mutual and balanced force reductions in Central Europe should begin on January 31, 1973, in a place to be agreed through diplomatic channels. The Government of the Federal Republic of Germany have communicated this proposal to the Government of the German Democratic Republic. The intention is that the Governments of Denmark, Greece, Italy, Norway and Turkey should also be represented at the talks. No replies have yet been received.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, while thanking the Minister for that very full reply, and welcoming it, may I ask him this question? What is the relation between this conference about a reduction in arms in Central Europe and the wider conference on mutual and balanced reductions between the East and West, which is to be held in Vienna? May I also ask him whether, within the terms of reference, there will be a proposal for a nuclear-free region in Central Europe, as first proposed by Sir Anthony Eden, later Lord Avon, and developed under the 1042 Rapacki Plan, supported by Mr. Hugh Gaitskell; and, if such a proposal is in the terms of reference, whether Her Majesty's Government will support it?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, I am afraid that I cannot anticipate for the noble Lord precisely what will be within the terms of reference of this conference. As I think he knows, the prime aim, of course, is to secure a reduction in conventional forces in Central Europe; but this is only an exploratory conference to prepare the way for a full conference later next year, and I have no doubt that these other matters which the noble Lord has mentioned will be discussed at this meeting.
§ LORD ORR-EWINGMy Lords, will my noble friend hear in mind in any such discussions, which I personally welcome, that the intentions are more important if they are measured by the deeds and not by the words? Is it not true that Russia's military might has expanded, and is continuing to expand, so that they have been able to deploy one million men against China without reducing their military strength in the West by one jot? Therefore, will the Government bear in mind the need for the rigorous inspection which should follow if any agreement is reached?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANYes, my Lords; I will certainly bear in mind what my noble friend has said. This is a very important conference preparing the way for, I think he will agree, an even more important conference.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, may I ask the noble Marquess whether he can explain the difference between this proposed conference so far as the proposals are concerned, or what is in the mind of the United Kingdom and other Governments about the reduction in forces, and the European security conference? Are we not having too many conferences and getting nowhere?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANI do not think so, my Lords. I think that both these conferences are of extreme importance.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, I am sorry to come back on this, but I may be misinformed. What I wanted to know from the Minister was the relationship 1043 between this particular conference on Central Europe and the other conference on the wider sphere of mutual and balanced reductions between East and West. Can the Minister give us an assurance that this matter will be pressed forward in order not to delay any agreements which may be reached at Helsinki, at the conference on European security and co-operation?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, I can certainly give the noble Lord the assurance that we for our part will press forward with these conferences with the greatest possible vigour. I should like to have notice of the other question he asked me, about the precise relationship between this conference and the one he mentioned as being held in Vienna, and if I may, will write to him.
§ LORD GEORGE-BROWNMy Lords, may I ask a question? The noble Marquess says that this will be pressed on with great vigour on our part. Am I not right in thinking that we have little to give here in terms of conventional forces, because the Eastern Powers are far ahead of us? Our great defence (unhappily enough, but it is so) is the nuclear weapon. May I therefore ask the noble Marquess to be a little easy about giving away such strength as we have in order to get a success at a conference, because it might leave the West pretty bare.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, I can assure the noble Lord that that point is well understood by Her Majesty's Government.
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, is it not a fact that the conference to which the noble Marquess has referred to-day is a conference to discuss mutual and balanced force reductions throughout the whole of Europe; that it is not confined to Central Europe and that there is no other conference on mutual and balanced force reductions but the one mentioned in his original Answer?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for making that point. I rather thought that that was the case, but, as I said, I required notice of the question.
§ BARONESS GAITSKELLMy Lords, would it not be true to say that a demili- 1044 tarised zone in Central Europe would act as a kind of pilot scheme for a greater demilitarisation between East and West Powers in Europe and, therefore, would be a very good thing for peace in Europe?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANCertainly, my Lords. I am sure that this is what we all hope.
§ LORD GEORGE-BROWNNo.