HL Deb 22 November 1972 vol 336 cc951-2

2.34 p.m.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government the total value in money terms of armaments sold to Middle East countries in the years 1970–71 and 1972 respectively and the names of the countries concerned.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE (LORD CARRINGTON)

My Lords, details of sales of British defence equipment to individual countries and groups of countries are confidential and it has been the policy of successive Governments for many years not to dislose them.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, whether he feels any pride in making a profit from the sale of arms to Middle East countries, and whether he regards it as a contribution to peace?

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, that seems to be rather wide of the Question.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, why does the noble Lord say that it is wide of the Question? It has a bearing on the Question. What is the purpose of selling arms to the Middle East, apart from making a profit?

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, perhaps the noble Lord would like to put down a Question about that.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, must not be evasive, because it will not do him any good. It is a fair question. If the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, finds it impossible to disclose the actual sales of arms to the respective countries which receive them and what profit is derived from them, he may be justified in refusing information on that ground. But surely we are entitled to know what is the general principle behind it. Do I understand that the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, refuses to answer the question?

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, I think there should be rules of order in this House. I was asked to answer the Question which the noble Lord has on the Order Paper, and I have answered it.

THE EARL OF ARRAN

My Lords, referring to the year 1972, may I ask whether it remains the policy of Her Majesty's Government to supply £100 million worth of arms to Egypt?

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, the policy of Her Majesty's Government with regard to arms supplies to the Middle East is to consider all applications on their merits, and in making individual decisions account is taken of the prevailing military balance in the region and the balance in the supply of arms.

LORD BESWICK

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord this question? While I agree with him that there are rules, and that rules have to be kept, would he not agree that there are ways of keeping those rules? Some are in keeping with the amiability of this House and some are not, and would not the noble Lord agree that the way in which he is keeping them is not really in line with the smooth running of the House?

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, if I was unamiable in refusing to answer Lord Shinwell's supplementary question, I apologise. It is the last thing I wanted to be; but it is very difficult to say, "No" without saying, "No"

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that it does not display a high level of intelligence to reply in the negative?

LORD GLADWYN

My Lords, on a point of information, do other members of the Western Alliance publish any details in regard to their supply of arms to other countries?

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, I do not think there is a general rule. Some do and some do not, but it has been the general practice of all Governments in this country not to do so.