§ 3.14 p.m.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether there has been a change of policy regarding the sale of arms to Spain.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, the policy of Her Majesty's Government has been to study requests for arms in the context of political, security, and strategic considerations.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that Answer. Is it not the case that the last Labour Government declined to provide arms for Spain, particularly in the case of frigates, because of the totalitarian régime in Spain? Is it the 1437 case now that the Government have communicated with armament firms in this country indicating to them that Spain has a £190 million programme for military expansion this year, and does it not undermine the whole conception of the West standing for the Free World when they encourage military equipment for a totalitarian country?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, it is quite true that the previous Government did have a ban on the sale of arms to Spain and this was linked with the whole question of Gibraltar. It is also a fact that we have drawn the attention of a trade association to the re-equipment of Spain's forces. We have done so, first, because of the extent of this re-equipment, and secondly, because we felt we had to have regard to the high figure of unemployment in this country, although happily to-day it is just under the million.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, the noble Baroness may get satisfaction from this small reduction in the unemployment figure, but would she give an assurance to the House that the Government, in their attitude and their policy on arms to Spain, have an assurance from the Government of Spain that those arms will not be used in any problems dealing with Gibraltar?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, has raised this question because the Spanish Government have stated publicly that they would not resort to force over Gibraltar, and we are sure that it would not be in their interest to do so.
§ BARONESS LEE OF ASHERIDGEMy Lords, did I hear the noble Baroness aright? Did she say that arms for Spain was being linked with unemployment in this country and that that was a factor in the Government's policy?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, the main factor is that we do not think that a ban on the sale of arms to Spain should be linked with the question of Gibraltar. No sales or negotiations have in fact taken place, but we must take into account the employment situation in this country.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, in view of the fact that the Party on the other side of the House not infrequently had Questions on the supply of arms, would the noble Baroness not agree that the manufacture of arms makes as substantial a contribution to employment as any other manufactures; and in view of the continual representations of the inadequacy of the Government in doing anything to reduce unemployment in this country, are not these continual questions rather surprising?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Barnby, but I do not think these questions are surprising because the previous Government did in fact have a total ban on arms sales. We feel that we should not link the question with Gibraltar.
§ LORD SEGALMy Lords, can the noble Baroness say to what extent these arms are intended for internal or external utilisation?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I am afraid I cannot answer that question because no requests have yet been made.
§ LORD BALOGHMy Lords, in view of the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Barnby, said the employment policy comes into this question, does the noble Baroness not think that there are other less reprehensible ways to stimulate employment? Why do not the Government use those ways?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I think that perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Balogh, has not noticed the last Budget and also the various measures that have been taken since to stimulate employment.
§ LORD BALOGHMy Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that reply. I am quite sure that she, like many of us, must be very disturbed—
§ LORD BALOGH—about the number of projects. Does she not think that a greater effort at an earlier date would have been better.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I do not think 1439 that this particular Question ought to be the subject of a general economic debate.
§ LORD SHEPHERDYou started it!
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness whether, in addition to the reservation about Gibraltar which she has already given, there will be a reservation in the case of Spain, as there is with South Africa, that these arms will not be used for internal repression of the trade unions, students, Basques and Catalonians who are now being suppressed by this totalitarian régime?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Segal, asked me this question and I said that I regretted I could not give him a reply as to what these arms would be used for because no request has yet been made.