HL Deb 17 May 1972 vol 330 cc1373-5
LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government how many persons are wholly unemployed; what percentage of them have been paid wages so that their unemployment pay, plus, in appropriate cases, national assistance or supplementary assistance, adds up in the aggregate to more money per week than the pay they were getting whilst in employment.

THE MINISTER OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY (LORD ABERDARE)

My Lords, on April 10, 1972, the latest date for which figures are available, 972,783 persons were registered as wholly unemployed in the United Kingdom. I regret that the information asked for in the second part of the Question is not available.

LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE

My Lords, may I ask my noble friend to convey to the Ministers concerned the very real importance of this question, so that it may be considered without too much politics but with regard to economics and compassion, and with a view to seeing either that the lowly-paid get paid more, bearing differentials in mind, or that the unemployed get less, or both, but especially taking a compassionate view about those who are not very well off?

LORD ABERDARE

My Lords, I certainly take the point made by my noble friend. This is a question which we have had under active consideration, taking into account, as he says, both the economic and the compassionate aspects of it. There are certain instances where people with large families are paid very low wages, and I am quite sure he is right in saying that the answer is to increase the wages received by those who are getting too little.

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, since the Government have had this question under active consideration, may I ask the noble Lord what he and his colleagues are going to do about the first part of the Question? Is he aware that it is more important to reduce the number of unemployed than to worry about this other aspect?

LORD ABERDARE

Indeed, my Lords; I certainly accept that from the noble Lord. We are doing our best to reduce the number of unemployed, and the noble Lord will have seen our proposals for regional development which were recently announced.

LORD BALOGH

My Lords, does the Minister consider that his best is good enough?

LORD GISBOROUGH

My Lords, is it not true that some of the people who are registered as unemployed are in fact prematurely retired people who have to register as unemployed in order to get their stamps? Would it not be an advantage to the unemployment figures if such people did not have to continue paying for their stamps when they have been prematurely retired?

LORD ABERDARE My Lords, I will certainly look into my noble friend's point.

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

My Lords, does not the wage-stop clause mean that the number of people who get more money when they are out of work than when they arc in work must be negligible?

LORD ABERDARE

My Lords, I think that is very largely true, but there are certain instances where it can happen; particularly, for example, where there are income tax refunds.

LORD LEATHERLAND

My Lords, will the noble Lord consider very carefully before he adopts the suggestion made by his noble friend for faking the comparative state of the unemployment figures?

LORD ABERDARE

Yes, my Lords.

LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE

My Lords, I do not think I was faking anything.

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