§ 2.43 p.m.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, may I apologise for having two Questions on the Order Paper this afternoon? One was originally tabled for yesterday. I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have endorsed the sale by Westland Aircraft Ltd. of seven Wasp helicopters to the Government of the Republic of South Africa.
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE)Yes, my Lords. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs said in another place on February 22 last year that Her Majesty's Government have informed the South African Government that if orders were placed for Wasp helicopters Her Majesty's Government would, according to their legal obligations, issue export licences at the appropriate time.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, while thanking the noble Baroness, whom we welcome back from Chile, may I ask her this supplementary question? Does the reservation that arms shall not be used for internal purposes within South Africa still stand; and, if so, how was it that helicopters were used in Namibia, South-West Africa, during the recent labour unease?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, the answer to the noble Lord's first supplementary question is: Yes, that still stands. The answer to his second supplementary question is that we are sure that Wasp helicopters could not possibly be used because they are not troop-carrying aircraft.
§ LORD WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness whether the fulfilment of the supply of seven Wasp helicopters to South Africa discharges our legal liability in that direction?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, the noble Lord will, I am sure, remember that the White Paper on the legal obligations of this country referred in the first place to Westland Wasp helicopters and, secondly, to
such replacements of the initial equipment and stores and base reserves for all the vessels supplied under the Sea Routes Agreement".
§ LORD AVEBURYMy Lords, is the noble Baroness saying that it is technically impossible to modify the Wasp helicopters by adding machine guns so that they can be used in a role rather like that in which the United States forces have been using their helicopters in Vietnam? And if that is so, how can the noble Baroness say that they are not capable of being used for internal repression?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I am informed that the Wasp is essentially an anti-submarine helicopter, and that those supplied to the South Africans contain a range of electronic and radar apparatus, and have room for only two crew members.
§ LORD AVEBURYMy Lords, what I asked the noble Baroness was: why should they not take out this electronic equipment and put in machine guns? Is she saying that that is technically impossible?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I do not think I am technically qualified to say whether it would be technically possible, but the fact is that the helicopters supplied to the South African Government are not troop-carrying helicopters.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness whether it is 1280 not the case that these helicopters were used in Namibia for reconnaissance purposes to inform the ground troops?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, my information is that The Times carried a report that the South African police were using helicopters in order to stop tribal fighting in Natal. It did not specify the type of helicopter, but it probably referred to the Puma, which was of course supplied by the French.
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that it is not only troop-carrying aircraft or armed helicopters which are used in riot duties, but reconnaissance helicopters, to give the security forces the information they want about the riot? Will she therefore give us an assurance that in the case of these seven helicopters Her Majesty's Government will get an undertaking from the South African Government that they will not be used in riot duties?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, we have always made it perfectly clear that we would not supply arms under our legal obligations, as is the case with the Wasp helicopters, for purposes of enforcing apartheid.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYEMy Lords, is it not the case that you could put a machine gun on any commercial aircraft if you wanted, or drop a bomb from any commercial aircraft? Is it not a very good thing from the point of view of employment in this country that we are exporting these excellent helicopters?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I am sure it is an excellent idea from the point of view of employment, and I am sure they are excellent helicopters.