§ 4.0 p.m.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, with the leave of the House I should like to repeat a Statement which has been made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. I will give the Statement in his own words:
"I wish to tell the House of two urgent measures which I have felt it necessary to set in hand to-day. Since planning this Statement, however, I have heard of the bestial crime committed against a 15-year-old girl in the Falls Road area of Belfast last night. I am sure the whole House, and indeed the vast majority of the community in Northern Ireland, utterly condemns this action. I would like to express my sympathy to the girl and her parents. I can assure the House that the most strenuous action will be taken to bring those responsible to justice.
"Turning now to the two urgent measures, two important Orders in Council have been made to-day. The first Order extends the Northern Ireland explosives legislation so as to enable control to be exercised over substances which, although not in themselves explosives, are capable of being used for explosive purposes in combination 1146 with other substances. As many honourable Members may be aware, ammonium nitrate and sodium chlorate, both of which are readily available for agricultural use, have been used by the I.R.A. with deadly effect, of which we may have seen another example at the Belfast Cooperative building yesterday. This Order and the Regulations which it empoyers me to make"—
that is, my right honourable friend—
"and which I intend to make as soon as possible, will enable these substances to be put under control: measures which I hope will help to save lives which might otherwise have been lost. The Order will be laid before the House and the necessary Resolutions moved within the 40-day period stipulated. I could have taken this action under the Special Powers Act but I thought that the House would prefer me to do it in this way.
"A second Order has been made under the same procedure to set up a Finance Corporation for Northern Ireland so as to help to reduce the very serious levels of unemployment in Northern Ireland, which are themselves conductive to social unrest. This is an extremely urgent need, and a Bill to establish a Finance Corporation to give financial support to undertakings in the Province had passed all but the very last stages at Stormont. But for the Prorogation it would almost certainly be in operation now.
"I am anxious, and I feel sure all sides of the House will agree, that there should be no delay in setting up the Corporation and enabling it to begin its vital work. This Order also will therefore be laid as soon as possible and the necessary Resolution will likewise be moved in due course."
That is the end of my right honourable friend's Statement.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, we are all grateful to the noble Viscount for repeating the Statement. I am sure, too, that we should all wish to agree with what he said in the first part of that Statement about the crime committed in the Falls Road. The noble Viscount called it a bestial crime. My Lords, it was degrading not only to those who 1147 committed it but also to those who stood by and watched them committing it. It was degrading, too, to our society of which that part of Ireland came to be a part, and there are many who will wonder why we strive so hard to retain them as part of our society.
My Lords, with regard to the first Order, we appreciate both the urgency and also the importance of it and Her Majesty's Government can count on our co-operation in seeing that the Order is approved. With regard to the second Order, I would ask the noble Viscount whether he is aware that the degree of urgency there is not of the same high order. May I ask, for example, why the unemployed in Northern Ireland are so much more deserving than the unemployed elsewhere; and why, if the Finance Corporation is considered an urgent institution there, Her Majesty's Government have gone out of their way to pull down similar machinery for the rest of the United Kingdom? Will he accept that we shall need to look at this Order with the utmost care before it is approved?
§ LORD WADEMy Lords, I should like to join in thanking the noble Viscount for repeating the Statement. I think that he very rightly referred to this crime against a girl as "bestial" and I hope that those responsible will be brought to justice. Arising out of that part of the Statement, I wonder whether it would be proper to ask if the noble Viscount can confirm that there appears to be a considerable desire for peace, particularly among the womenfolk, in the various communities in Northern Ireland; and whether he is able to say to what extent they are being deterred from expressing their views publicly?
As to the Orders, it is the wish of my colleagues on the Liberal Benches to approve both of them. They appear to be ones which ought to be supported. Perhaps, on a procedural matter, I may ask this question. As I understand it, in the existing situation all Regulations and Orders will require Affirmative Resolutions, and that none will rely on a Negative Prayer.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, if I may attempt to deal with 1148 those points, I have no doubt that the words of the noble Lords, Lord Beswick and Lord Wade, about this crime will be noted. It must indeed be a very small number of people in Northern Ireland who approve of that sort of behaviour. I certainly do not think that we could possibly associate ourselves with the idea that this is in any way representative and that our disgust at this sort of thing should be levelled at the large body of the population in Northern Ireland. I do not think that the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, meant any such thing; certainly we do not think that that is the case.
My Lords, as to the urgency for these Orders, I am grateful for what both noble Lords said about the co-operation that they will give, even though on the Finance Order the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, was a little less enthusiastic. There will be a further occasion to discuss this. The way this is being done is that the Order is being laid now and comes into operation straight away, but it lapses if it does not receive the Affirmative Resolution within 40 days. So that both these Orders will have to come back to the House and there can be a discussion on them.
The noble Lord, Lord Beswick, asked why the Finance Order was so urgent and why we were doing, or appeared to be doing, something different in Northern Ireland from what we were doing elsewhere. My Lords, the Industry Bill was laid in another place yesterday and when that is in print I think that the noble Lord may find some comfort in it. But I think the particular reason here is that this Finance Corporation was practically in existence as a result of Stormont legislation when that Parliament was prorogued. Obviously, it has an extremely useful purpose and we think it urgent. I hope that if the House wishes to express any doubts upon it, it will wait until the (debate on the Affirmative Resolution which, incidentally, I hope that my noble friend Lord Windlesham will deal with, because he knows more about it than I do. I hope that the House will wait until then to consider the matter more fully.
The noble Lord, Lord Wade, asked about the desire for peace, particularly among the womenfolk. I am afraid that 1149 I simply do not know the answer regarding the extent to which they are being deterred, but I should think that it is both men and women in large numbers in Northern Ireland who are longing for peace. Certainly part of the operation which I am sure that my right honourable friend has in mind is to see that those who wish for peace should be deterred as little as possible. I think those are the points about which noble Lords asked me and I hope that I have answered the questions adequately.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, may I, from the Back Benches, associate many of us—indeed, I think all of us—with what has been said by the Minister and the representatives of the two Parties on the Opposition Benches about the appalling crime on a girl of 15. May I ask the Minister this question? When he speaks of financial aid to deal with unemployment in Northern Ireland—and first may I welcome that which in the towns amounts to 10 per cent. and in some of the provincial towns 20 per cent. and 30 per cent., will attention be given to the provincial towns as well as to the urban centres? Secondly, may I ask whether, before the Order is introduced, there will be consultations with the employers' associations and with the trade union organisations in order to get their co-operation in any measures that are taken to deal with unemployment?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, I do not know that I can give detailed answers to the noble Lord about the actual way in which the Finance Corporation will work. What I think to be the case—if I am wrong I will write to the noble Lord to see that he is not misled; I hope that I am not misleading the House—is that this is a Corporation to deal only with the finance. How it will actually use these powers is something that I should have expected to be the subject of close consultation not only with those mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, but over the widest possible field in Northern Ireland. I think that this machinery and the way that it is used will be the subject of further consultation and discussion in the Province.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, may I ask the noble Viscount—and perhaps 1150 even the noble Earl the Leader of the House—whether in handling the second Order we are likely to follow this procedure in future? There is, I think, an important Parliamentary point here. The noble Viscount more or less says: "Wait for it. Do not be too nervous or doubtful at this stage; wait until we debate it." But, of course, it comes into force now. We shall be legislating in retrospect, involving the expenditure of money, and Parliament is going to be in great difficulty. I know that the noble Earl is well aware of the problems—and goodness knows! how we are going to sort this out. It seems to me we are having to take the second Order (as opposed to the first Order, as to which I fully see the emergency) even though it appears to have passed most of its stages at Stormont—though we still do not know whether it has been completetd—on trust. Of course I trust the noble Earl and the noble Viscount, but none the less, from a Parliamentary point of view, it is rather unsatisfactory. I am not trying to make a Party point. I think there is a valid point in this matter. Quite clearly Parliament will have to have a sight of future Orders before they actually become law. We have no say in this. It might have been defeated on Third Reading in Stormont; I do not know.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, if I may, I will try to answer that point. I appreciate that this is an unusual, and perhaps in itself an emergency way of proceeding. The procedure is that the Order dies unless affirmative approval is given to it within 40 days. So this is not legislating permanently without giving Parliament a chance to consider the matter. However, I well understand Lord Shackleton's anxiety about the way in which this is being done. I have to take it on trust from my right honourable friend that this is a matter of urgency. If he tells me so then I must pass that message on and make the Statement to this House. That is the point of my repeating the Statement. I suggest that we should examine the question of the urgency of these matters; that we should consider this to be perhaps an exceptional occasion; that through the usual channels we should go into the merits of this sort of thing, and have consultations with a view to 1151 being able to reach some sort of accommodation in that way.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I am obliged to the noble Viscount for what he has said about future consideration. Can he say what, if any, financial commitment has been undertaken by setting up this Finance Corporation in this way?
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, may we be told when the Order will be available? We know that it has been made, but it is not yet available. I am not blaming noble Lords opposite in this unfamiliar situation, but it is extremely unsatisfactory from a Parliamentary point of view. I know that noble Lords must understand this point. I wonder whether the noble Earl the Leader of the House will respond on this matter, because I cannot believe that there is any noble Lord in the House who does not regard this as a most unsatisfactory way of proceeding, not with regard to the first Order, but as to the second Order. The noble Viscount says that the Order lapses after 40 days. But we cannot seriously contemplate setting something up without giving the people who are going to work in it some contract or expectation: we cannot just say that it depends on whether Parliament approves or not.
§ LORD ALPORTMy Lords, may I ask the noble Viscount, in the particular circumstances, when there must be, as I understand it, a discussion in both Houses to approve this Order, whether that should not take place as early as possible so that there is as small a lapse of time as possible between the laying of the Order and the discussion of the Order in this House?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition has asked me to respond. In fact my spontaneous response was conveyed through my noble friend Lord Colville just now. We are on unfamiliar ground here, and I should not wish to venture on to it too far without some further thought, because I am not certain where 1152 it will take me. What I should like to do is to bear in mind what the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition has said, and indeed what my noble friend Lord Alport has said—I think that his suggestion has merit—and see how best in the future we should tackle this type of Order. Frankly, I think this subject requires some further study and consideration, perhaps through the usual channels, and we can then come back mad report to your Lordships' House.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, perhaps I might add a word to what my noble friend has said, because I want to apologise for the non-availability of this document. It is an extremely awkward situation. It is perhaps even more awkward for me than for other noble Lords when I am asked questions like the one the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, asked me just now.