§ 2.49 p.m.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether their attention has been drawn to reports in the Press of 22 April in which the President of Egypt reported that Egypt is getting Western produced arms freely (including arms of British origin) through third parties in the Arab world; and whether they will state the number of Arab States to which the export of armaments has been authorised or permitted during the past two years.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, we are aware of these Press reports of President Sadat's speech. Exports of military equipment have been authorised to twelve Arab States over the past two years. There has been no change in our policy on the sale of military equipment to countries in the Middle East. Requests are considered on their merits, taking account of the balance of military power in the area. There is, and has been, no embargo on the sale to parties to the Arab/Israeli dispute, either directly or indirectly. We are satisfied that Egypt has obtained indirectly no equipment that we should not have been willing to supply directly.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, would not the situation appear to call into question the usefulness and efficacy of the present system of licensing of naval and military arms with British labour content to other countries, for instance Israel? I say this particularly since other armament manufacturing countries, particularly Russia, appear to operate no internationally recognisable system of licensing.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, as I stated in my Answer, the policy of the British Government in this matter is to consider applications for mili 656 tary equipment to all countries in the Middle East on their merits. This takes into account the balance of 'the military power in that area. If it were judged at any time that a complete embargo on such sales would be efficacious in either promoting a settlement or reducing the possibility of hostilities, obviously this is something that we would consider very seriously.
LORD JANNERMy Lords, when the noble Lord is considering the matter of armaments going either directly or indirectly to Egypt, will he take into consideration the statement made recently by President Sadat that he was prepared to risk a million lives in order to be able to achieve his ends, which means with such armaments as he is supplied? Will be advise President Sadat that he would be better employed in using those funds for the purpose of giving assistance to those who are in such desperate need in Egypt?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, this is slightly wider than the original Question, but I take note of what the noble Lord has said. It remains the policy of Her Majesty's Government to promote peace in the area.
§ LORD BURNTWOODMy Lords, is the noble Marquess saying that within the past four years no sophisticated weapons, for instance, tanks, have been supplied to Middle East countries, Libya for example, which have been refused to Israel?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, the House knows well that it has never been the practice of this Administration or any other to comment on particular questions concerning specified items of equipment supplied to particular countries. But as I said in my substantive Answer, we are satisfied that no indirect sales have taken place to Egypt of items which we would not have been willing to consider selling to them directly.
§ LORD WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, when the noble Marquess talks about the balance of power in the Middle East so far as armaments are concerned in Arab countries, is he seriously suggesting that the Government have been able to assess accurately the quantity and quality of the 657 weapons which the Soviet Union has made available in the Middle East?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, I do not think I can answer that question precisely without notice. It is precisely the type of question that we are endeavouring to the best of our ability to assess before deciding about any particular form of transaction.
LORD JANNERMy Lords, with respect, would the noble Lord permit me to ask him again whether, when supplying arms, he takes into consideration such statements as the one made by President Sadat that he is prepared to put a million of his people's lives at stake—obviously, with the arms with which he is supplied? Surely that is an important matter to consider when supplying arms.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANYes, my Lords, we certainly take that type of statement into consideration.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, arising out of the supplementary answers which the noble Marquess has given, will he recall a Statement made by the Minister of the day in this House on one sale of over £100 million worth of military and naval equipment to Saudi Arabia? Can lie indicate the system that is followed by Her Majesty's Government to satisfy themselves that there is no transfer by the original recipients to third parties?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, I do not think that I can answer that question properly without notice. What I can tell the noble Lord, as I have said before this afternoon, is that in making transactions of sales of equipment to countries in the Middle East we take into account very strongly the possibility that there may be further indirect sales. But I cannot answer the noble Lord's question specifically without notice.
§ THE EARL OF ONSLOWMy Lords, if the Government are concerned with the balance of power in the middle East, why are they considering selling submarines to Israel, who have overwhelming military superiority in that area and will not obey the United Nations Security Council resolutions?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, that is another question and, in any case, as I think my noble friend is 658 aware, it is not the practice of the Government to comment on particular transactions.
§ LORD SEGALMy Lords, are the Government seriously intending to compete with Russia in the sale of arms to the Middle East?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, I hardly think that that is likely.