AIR FARES AND COMPLAINTS BY PUBLIC (Hansard, 23 March 1972)

§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORT-FOLIO (LORD DRUMALBYN)
My Lords, as from April 1 the Civil Aviation Authority will assume responsibility for approving or disapproving IATA resolutions on air fares on international scheduled air services. The Authority will determine the control over and the level of minimum inclusive tour prices and domestic air fares. Appeals against terms of licences may be made to the Secretary of State. As to the second part of the noble Baroness's Question, there is nothing to prevent citizens from making complaints to the Authority and I am sure that the Authority will make arrangements to deal with such complaints no less satisfactorily than those arrangements made by other public corporations serving the public.

§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY
My Lords, while appreciating that the Minister must be very glad to be rid of these continuous questions, may I ask him whether he is aware that many of us still hope that a member of the 830 Authority will accept within his remit responsibility for consumer affairs? Furthermore, as it has been so difficult to elicit information in this House over a long period, I wonder whether I may ask the Minister if he has seen the statement made by the Minister of Trade in another place on March 13 last, at column 123 of the Commons OFFICIAL REPORT, when he said: Abuse has been widespread and the rules governing affinity group flights have proved to be largely unworkable. … There is therefore a real and urgent need to find a better set of rules which will allow air travel to be brought more widely within the reach of the public, but in an open and aboveboard way that the public can rely on. May I ask the Minister whether this is the policy that we can now expect to be carried out, and with some urgency? After all, it is what we have been arguing about for fourteen months.

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
My Lords, it is certainly the policy that we should like the Civil Aviation Authority to pursue, and, as was shown in the debate that we had on Tuesday on the Guidance to the Civil Aviation Authority, a large part of that Guidance deals with the issuing of licences for air transport. Of course it will remain true that, so far as TATA matters are concerned, international agreement is necessary.

§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY
My Lords, I have studied Tuesday's debate with great care. May I ask the Minister, with reference to the question that I asked yesterday concerning the coming of cheaper flights in Europe, whether the two routes which the Minister gave us then may be taken as an advance guard of the individual excursion fares sought by B.E.A.? May I ask him, further, whether there will be more of these excursion rates so that the public can enjoy them this summer?

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
My Lords, as to the first part of the noble Baroness's question, it is not possible to say that it will be taken as an advance guard. What I think we can say is that we should like it to be the advance guard. I am afraid I have forgotten the second part of the noble Baroness's question.

§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY
My Lords, I am not really surprised. The second part of the question was 831 whether we might hope that similar individual excursion rates would be available to the public in Europe this summer.

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
No, my Lords: I think that is unlikely, because the negotiations are now on the verge of completion for the European side of IATA.

§ LORD BESWICK
My Lords, the noble Lord said that any complaint made by a customer to the Civil Aviation Authority would be considered by the Authority. May I ask him what legal authority he has for making that statement? Secondly, has he compared the Civil Aviation Authority with other public authorities? Is not the difference here that with all the other nationalised undertakings that have been set up there has been a consumer council of some sort established by law to consider complaints?

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
My Lords, as the noble Lord will recollect, a duty is laid upon the Civil Aviation Authority to inform itself of the public's needs and to take full account of them. That is done in the Guidance. The Authority will be required to follow that Guidance. How it follows it, as I explained in the debate on Tuesday, is left to the Authority.

§ LORD HANKEY
My Lords, will the Government bear in mind that the arrangement of charter flights is of enormous value to the travelling public?

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
Yes, my Lords.

§ LORD BESWICK
My Lords, as the noble Lord did not answer the second part of my question, may I take it that he therefore accepts that there is this difference between the Authority that we have now set up, without the legal requirement to consider representations, and other public authorities which leaves the gap to which my noble friend calls attention?

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
Yes, my Lords, to some extent. But, as I explained on Tuesday, the mere fact that there was a statutory obligation on the Air Transport Licensing Board to consider complaints did not lead to complaints being made to them. The average numbers were, I think, five a year. So we believe that it is better to leave this matter to the Civil Aviation 832 Authority to work out for itself, bearing in mind the duty that is placed upon the Authority to have regard to the interests of users no less than the interests of the providers of transport.

§ LORD BESWICK
My Lords, I apologise for pursuing this matter, but there has been some interest in it. The noble Lord is absolutely right in saying that there were few representations made to the old A.T.L.B. Indeed, I used to boast as a Member of Parliament that I had more letters on this subject within a month than the Board had within a year. But then there was a direct Departmental responsibility, and a Member of Parliament could go direct to a Minister. We have deliberately taken away from the Minister—

THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (EARL JELLICOE)
My Lords, I am afraid I must ask the noble Lord to put a question to my noble friend.

§ LORD BESWICK
My Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that we have now taken away from the Minister direct responsibility for this matter and put it under the C.A.B., and there is no legal authority to consider complaints?

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
My Lords, I have explained that although there is a direct statutory duty placed upon the Authority under the Act it must have regard to the interests of users and must also have regard to the Guidance. It is very clearly stated in the Guidance that the Authority must consider the interests of the consumers—and that must obviously relate also to complaints.

§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY
My Lords, I will be very brief, but I lose the noble Lord after April 1. May I just ask him whether he is aware (and on this particular point we are probably in agreement) that I am talking now not about consumer complaints but about consumer affairs, which I think are a very different matter, although it includes complaints?