HL Deb 22 March 1972 vol 329 cc680-2

2.45 p.m.

LORD STRABOLGI

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will confirm (a) that the Trustees of the Wallace Collection have made clear to the Department of Education and Science that they are in favour of free entry on one day a week after admission charges are introduced; (b) that a similar communication has been made through the Scottish Office on behalf of the National Museum of Artiquities of Scotland; and (c) that similar views have been received in respect of a further six institutions, making a total of eight out of the 15 national museums and galleries which are governed by trustees.]

THE PAYMASTER GENERAL (VISCOUNT Eccles)

My Lords, I have an apology to make. When I answered a Question on this subject on March 14, I was unaware that last November an official of my Department had elicited by telephone the views of the Trustees of the Wallace Collection. They have now written to me, and I am glad to confirm that they are in favour of a free day. The Trustees of the National Museum of Artiquities of Scotland have expressed a similar view to the Secretary of State for Scotland. Views in favour of free days have been expressed by four other bodies of trustees, representing six museums and galleries.

LORD STRABOLGI

My Lords, I thank the noble Viscount for that reply. May I ask him whether he is aware that, according to a reply given by the Government in another place on October 28, apart from the National Gallery and the Tate Gallery there were two bodies of trustees in Scotland, covering four galleries, and one other body in England—which was not the Wallace; it is now believed to be the London Museum—in favour of free days? Would he not agree therefore that this makes eight galleries—over 50 per cent. of the number of independent galleries—which were able to express these views?

VISCOUNT ECCLES

My Lords, it is quite true that there are eight; and it is also true (I obtained permission to quote them only this morning) that the London Museum is another of these galleries. I do not publish the views of trustees until they tell me that I may do so. The proportion of visitors to museums represented by these eight galleries is one-third, and if you take the whole of the national museums and galleries, it is one-quarter.

LORD AIREDALE

My Lords, is it the case that in practice the Wallace Collection could accommodate a great many more visitors than attend it nowadays and that the introduction of charges is not likely to increase the attendance by visitors at the Wallace Collection? Might it not therefore be a good idea to try as an experiment a free day at the Wallace Collection, to see whether this stimulates interest in the Collection and humps up the attendance even on the days when charges are levied?

VISCOUNT ECCLES

My Lords, that is an attractive idea; but, as I explained before, if any one or more of the national galleries had a free day it would in effect be contributing less than its proportion to the £1 million, and this might well endanger the 10p entrance fee.

LORD AIREDALE

My Lords, with respect, does that follow? If the interest in the Wallace Collection is thereby stimulated and more people visit it on paying days because there has been interest stimulated, what the Minister has just said does not hold good, does it?

VISCOUNT ECCLES

My Lords, what effect charging at the Wallace Museum has is something that we must find out. It is one of the matters which will come up for review in three years' time.

LORD SEGAL

My Lords, in view of the fact that the noble Viscount's right honourable friend only yesterday gave away no less than £1,200 million, may I ask why the Minister is so rigid and doctrinaire over an issue of a paltry £1 million? Why cannot he leave this matter to the wisdom and discretion of the trustees concerned, and set the museums free?

VISCOUNT ECCLES

My Lords, my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer was able to give away £1,200 million because the revenue is buoyart.

LORD GARDINER

My Lords, may I ask the noble Viscount whether he thinks that we shall be able to continue getting equally eminent trustees for our museums and galleries as we have in the past if, on a matter of administrative detail like a free day, in which they have the sole right at law to decide, they are bullied by the Government into doing what they do not think is in the interest of their museum or gallery?

VISCOUNT ECCLES

My Lords, this is not a matter of administrative detail; it is part of the way in which the total budget of the museums is financed.

LORD STRABOLGI

My Lords, may I ask the noble Viscount whether he is aware that a free day at the Scottish National Portrait Gallery and the Scottish National Museum of Artiquities, which occupy the same building, would cost £500 a year?

VISCOUNT ECCLES

My Lords, that is not a calculation of which I am aware.