§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have now approved the North Atlantic fares structure as agreed originally by IATA in Geneva on December 12 last; and, if not, what will be the position of those travellers holding tickets for these new cheap flights dating from April 1 next.]
§ THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD DRUMALBYN)My Lords, Her Majesty's Government have approved the North Atlantic fares adopted by IATA.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, can the noble Lord tell me the date of the approval, the amount and placing of publicity given and how the ordinary travelling public were to know that such approval had been given?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNNot without notice, my Lords. I think the noble Baroness should bear in mind that the approval by Her Majesty's Government is not the only condition necessary to put these fares into operation. The fares have to be approved by several other Governments, including that of the U.S.A.; and I have already told your Lordships that the procedures in the U.S.A. are apt to take rather a long time.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, it amazes me more each time I ask this Question. Can the noble Lord please inform me, and through this House the general public, how people are to know that these fares are available a week on Saturday, which is April 1, when 584 they have received no information to this effect? Secondly, can the noble Lord tell me for how long reservations have been made for these flights? And can he tell me, thirdly, how people have made these prior arrangements and reservations, or how it was possible to make them?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, to deal with the last question first, as I have told the noble Baroness before the fares to come into being on the inclusive tour basis were advertised in advance, with the caveat that they were subject to approval. The noble Baroness is right: there is a real difficulty here. But it is not a difficulty of the Government's making. If by any chance the approvals have not been given by April 1, then one possibility is that the existing fares will be carried forward for a time. In that case, so far as the existing fares are higher than the new ones, passengers will be liable to be charged the difference. That is only one possibility. This is unsatisfactory; but it is inherent in the length of time that it took to reach agreement in IATA.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, "unsatisfactory" is a conservative statement of the position. May I ask the noble Lord, seriously, whether he does not agree that this is a mockery? I have been asking him Questions about these particular flights from the end of last year. Is he aware that it was I who told him that the advertisements were in the newspapers, with the words, "subject to Government approval", when he told me that B.O.A.C. could not do this sort of thing? I have the references here. Is he now telling the House seriously that these fares will be available from April 1; that the airlines assumed that the Government would agree, and allowed people to book? Does he not think that the general public should be informed when cheap fares are available and when these can be booked?
§ LORD TREFGARNEMy Lords, before the noble Lord replies, may I suggest that his difficulty, partly at least, is because the noble Baroness does not quite understand the method of approval of these fares? Is the noble Lord aware that all licences granted for the operation of services across the North Atlantic are in 585 accordance with what is called "Provision one", which allows inter alia for the application of fares from time to time approved by IATA? Do not the Government therefore apply blanket approval to all IATA approved fares?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I agree with my noble friend to a large extent. But any new fares agreed within IATA still need the approval of the Government. I am entirely sympathetic to the noble Baroness. I think that everyone has quite good reason for misgivings about the situation; but the fact is that in these particular negotiations endeavours were being made to introduce fares along the kind of lines that the noble Baroness has been suggesting. It was partly because of that that the difficulty in reaching agreement arose; and when agreement was at last reached there were also the changes in exchange rates last December, with the further necessity of harmonising the fares as between different nations at that time. It has been a very unfortunate conjunction of events, but this cannot be ascribed to any particular Government, because Governments act only when the fares come to them for approval.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, we must leave it at that; but the noble Lord is in a complete mess. Is he aware that the House is lenient with me because he is obviously in a complete mess? Can the noble Lord answer two simple questions? At what date did the Government approve these fares? Can the general public, through what the noble Lord has said to-day, assume that as from April 1 they will be able to use these cheap fares and that they can get tickets to-day?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, it is difficult to say what the fares will be, but there is every hope that they will be at the rates at which they have been booked. I am sorry that the noble Baroness should think that I am in a mess. What has happened is that all Governments have been put into a difficulty, and the whole of the public has been put in a difficulty, by arrangements which were quite beyond the control of Her Majesty's Government.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, may I have the date of 586 approval by the Government? I did ask for that in my question.
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, the noble Baroness's Question says:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have now approved the North Atlantic fares structure as agreed originally by IATA …".
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, I am referring to my first supplementary question. May I have the date of approval?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I thought, with respect, that I replied to the noble Baroness that I should need notice of that question.
§ LORD ROYLEMy Lords, would it not appear that April 1 seems to be a very appropriate date for this?