§ 2.33 p.m.
§ LORD AVEBURYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will estimate the proportion of car drivers and passengers who use safety belts, and whether they will examine the possibility of introdusing legislation to make the wearing of safety belts compulsory.]
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, seat belts are worn by about one-seventh of the front seat occupants of cars. Her Majesty's Government would prefer to increase this proportion by persuasion rather than compulsion.
§ LORD AVEBURYMy Lords, can the noble Lord say what improvement there has been in the number of people wearing seat belts since it became compulsory to fit them in all motor cars? May I also ask the noble Lord whether he has studied the experience of New Zealand where I believe, following the compulsory wearing of seat belts, there was a very drastic reduction in the number of serious road injuries as well as in the number of deaths? While we in Britain may not yet be ready for this kind of legislation, will the noble Lord keep a very close eye on the experience overseas?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONYes, my Lords. We shall always do that. In answer to the noble Lord's first supplementary question about the improvement in numbers, it is very hard to be 429 exact because it varies, so much. We know that on motorways one in four of the front seat occupants wear safety belts, but in big towns the figure is probably less than one in 12. We are aware of what is happening in New Zealand and Australia. The wearing of seat belts has increased in Australia by about 60 per cent., and I am told that at the moment casualties are down by about 20 per cent. We are watching this development.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, can the noble Lord say what percentage of Her Majesty's Ministers use safety belts in official cars?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONNot without notice, my Lords.
§ LORD WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, following on what the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, said, may I ask whether he was correct in stating that seat belts must be fitted in all cars?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONIn all new cars, my Lords. I think that is what the noble Lord meant.
VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDSMy Lords, if the noble Lord is not prepared to go as far as the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, wishes, is he prepared to make the wearing of seat belts compulsory in the road safety regulations, so that even if the failure to wear seat belts is not a criminal matter it can at least be taken into account when a person is injured in an accident?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, the noble Viscount has made a very interesting point, which I will certainly bring to the attention of my right honourable friend. Both this Government and the last one have been doing everything possible to persuade. As noble Lords may be aware, there have been publicity campaigns, one of which, in the Tyne-Tees Television area, doubled the wearing of seat belts. We are willing to do everything we can, and will certainly consider the noble Viscount's point.
§ LORD KENNETMy Lords, is this not a question for the insurance companies? Could they not say, "No injury payment if you were not wearing your seat belt"?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONYes, my Lords. Anything like that is possible, but I do not suppose they would say that. There are practical difficulties, such as in the case of pregnant women. There are also van drivers who have to stop frequently and deliver, and several other categories which one can think of. It is very hard to legislate for all classes.
§ LORD WAKEFIELD OF KENDALMy Lords, while the fitting of safety belts in cars is one thing, the using of them is quite another. Are statistics available showing the relationship between the use of safety belts and the fitting of such belts in cars? This must clearly have a quite considerable bearing on all kinds of information and statistics which are now being given.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, if the noble Lord will read my answer to the first supplementary of the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, he will find that I have given the exact details.
§ LORD SEGALMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware of a device available in Italy and Sweden, which shows a warning red light on the dashboard when the car is being driven with the seat belts not in use, and will he encourage its adoption in this country?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, that is another point which we can look at. But if we think that safety belts are the answer, we might persuade people perhaps even more strongly than by a red light.
§ THE EARL OF BRADFORDMy Lords, does my noble friend consider that a better way of getting people to wear safety belts is by education, rather than by the irritation of attempting to enforce regulations in very difficult circumstances?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I heartily agree with my noble friend on that point.
§ LORD STRANGEMy Lords, will the noble Lord agree that seat belts in ordinary cars can be highly dangerous unless steel hoops, such as are used in racing cars, are also fitted?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONYes, my Lords. I can see what the noble Lord is getting at.
VISCOUNT MONCKMy Lords, bearing in mind the fact that legislation is no good whatsoever unless it is enforceable, is my noble friend prepared to give us within a reasonable time—let us say, before the Christmas Recess—the cost of enforcing efficiently the legislation asked for in the second part of the noble Lord's Question?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, Her Majesty's Government are at this moment considering what further publicity campaigns should be started this year with a view to furthering this safety measure. This is of course one of the items mostly to the fore.
§ LORD NUGENT OF GUILDFORDMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that the most effective means of encouraging the use of seat belts is to get a really good design of seat belts?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, as my noble friend will know, the Road Research Laboratory is working on this even now.
§ LORD ALLERTONMy Lords, will my noble friend agree that it is the opinion of the Road Research Laboratory that most fatal accidents stem from head injuries, and that seat belts would not necessarily prevent that type of injury as only a crash helmet would afford the necessary protection?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I am not sure that I can accept that. In many cases, head injuries are caused by the body being thrown forward on to the windscreen. A safety belt should always stop that.
§ LORD BRECONMy Lords, will my noble friend agree that most accidents are caused by bad driving?
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (EARL JELLICOE)My Lords, I think we have now sufficiently fastened our seat belts, and that we might now unfasten them and get on with the next Question.