NATIONAL GALLERIES AND PROPOSED FREE DAYS (Hansard, 14 March 1972)

§ BARONESS LEE OF ASHERIDGE
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ THE PAYMASTER GENERAL (VISCOUNT ECCLES)
My Lords, the arguments against a free day were set out in my letter of January 14 to the Chairmen of the Trustees of the National and Tate Galleries, which has been published in the Press and a copy of which I have sent to the noble Baroness. No new circumstance has arisen to make it less likely that free days would result in overcrowding and 314 would compel me to raise the basic charge from 10 to 20p.

§ BARONESS LEE OF ASHERIDGE
My Lords, is the Paymaster General aware that his reply will be deeply resented by the distinguished trustees of the great national galleries I mentioned, the Wallace Collection and others as well? Is he also aware that a number of our most distinguished patrons, including Mr. Henry Moore, are refraining from withdrawing gifts which they have made to the national galleries, worth much more than could be taken by this petty, socially-divisive tax, only because they believe that a more civilised Government will soon take over and remove these charges?

§ VISCOUNT ECCLES
My Lords, two galleries have written to me and expressed their views in favour of free days, but neither of them has told me either which day in the week they would prefer—

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS
Oh!

§ VISCOUNT ECCLES
No—this makes the exact difference. If the free day were at the weekend, the overcrowding would be immediate. Neither of them has given any evidence at all about the future attendance at the galleries to show that a free day would not result in over-crowding. As regards the money, I can only say that our calculations (which, I must admit, are not open to the trustees of the galleries) are that in the case of the whole 18 galleries, if we had free days we should have to raise the basic entrance fee. I can hardly believe that anyone would prefer to have a more expensive day and a free day rather than 10p all the time.

§ BARONESS LEE OF ASHERIDGE
My Lords, is the Paymaster General not aware that he could resolve this problem very simply by withholding the charges altogether, and that if he did so the most civilised members of his own Party, in addition to everyone on this side of the House, would be delighted?

§ VISCOUNT ECCLES
My Lords, civilisation is really a matter of judgment. In our view civilisation in this case is extending the national galleries and bringing in a very large programme of building, and not holding things up as they are and as they have been for a very long time.

§ LORD STRABOLGI
My Lords, bearing in mind what the Minister said about overcrowding, may I ask whether he is aware that the Wallace Collection would like to have a free day, that attendance there is very small and that a free day would do a great deal to encourage visitors? Furthermore, is he aware that a free day at the Wallace would cost only £2,000 a year?

§ VISCOUNT ECCLES
The Wallace Collection, my Lords, have made no approach to me at all. There was a notice in the paper last night; and they would be the third out of 18 national museums and galleries which have asked me for a free day. It is well known that other large national museums and galleries do not want a free day.

§ LORD SHINWELL
My Lords, do I understand from the noble Viscount that if the trustees of the galleries mentioned in the Question by my noble friend Lady Lee gave a specific reply to the Minister as to which day would be suitable in any given week, he would reconsider his decision?

§ VISCOUNT ECCLES
No, my Lords; but in the case of those two galleries, the National Gallery and the Tate Gallery, they have not given any information to show that it would be a reasonable thing to do for the benefit of the public. I myself take a different view from them about the increase in attendances. I have said that after three years we will review the whole system of charges. We can then see who was right.

§ LORD SHINWELL
My Lords, may I ask the noble Viscount—

§ LORD SHACKLETON
My Lords, is the noble Viscount—I am sorry; I was following in support of my noble friend, but he is supporting himself; I am afraid I did not hear him. Is the noble Viscount saying that he would be prepared to reconsider now if the rather specialised information that he is asking for were forthcoming, or is he in fact saying that he will not reconsider under the three-year period? I think it would be useful to know, because this makes plain why the Wallace Trustees have not thought it worth approaching him.

§ VISCOUNT ECCLES
No, my Lords. I have said in the House before that we need three years' experience before we can see whether or not, in the public interest, there are changes that should be made in the arrangements so far announced.

§ LORD ROBBINS
My Lords, I only wish to ask the noble Viscount whether the overtone of his penultimate answer was that the Trustees of the National Gallery had given no consideration to the public interest when they made their request to him.

§ VISCOUNT ECCLES
Not at all, my Lords; but I think that the Trustees of the National Gallery, who have already said that they would be reluctant to see more schoolchildren come to the National Gallery, should at least make some estimate of what the attendances will be over the next ten years. It is here that I differ from them. I may be wrong, but I believe that the spread of education and the increase in the tourist trade is going to produce very great overcrowding at our galleries.

§ LORD SHINWELL
My Lords, does not the noble Viscount realise that he is conveying the impression of acting in a somewhat arbitary fashion and of ignoring the views of distinguished trustees upon whom he must rely for administration in the future? Is it not just possible that the noble Viscount may be wrong?

§ VISCOUNT ECCLES
My Lords, I have just said that I may be wrong, but that I wish to have three years in which to find out. I do not ignore the views of the trustees. The trustees of the majority of these galleries and museums would not favour a free day. There are two or three who would. I think myself, especially in relation to the Tate Gallery and the National Gallery, that they are wrong because they have not looked at the forecasts as they should.

§ LORD STRABOLGI
My Lords, may I ask the noble Viscount why he is so rigid about this matter? If the trustees of galleries like the Wallace Collection, where attendance is very sparse, want to have a free day, would he not agree that this would be a great help in encouraging more visitors and more interest?

§ VISCOUNT ECCLES
My Lords, I am rigid because I feel that as we are about to introduce charges to collect £1 million, it is not fair that one gallery, which might be able to have a free day without serious overcrowding, should escape its part in contributing to the £1 million. The £1 million is necessary. If noble Lords will look at the Estimates for 1972–73 which were published this morning they will see that even before the big building programme gets into its stride these galleries are being given £2 million a year more.

§ LORD STRABOLGI
My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether he is not aware that the Wallace Collection do not acquire pictures and therefore would not gain from any increase in purchasing power that these charges might bring about?

§ VISCOUNT ECCLES
My Lords, I really think that that will not do. The Wallace Collection have to pay cleaners and wardens and have expenses which go up all the time, as the noble Lord knows. May I say once more to him that the Wallace Collection have never sent me any form of communication about this matter.

§ LORD STRABOLGI
My Lords, they communicated with me.

§ VISCOUNT ECCLES
My Lords, and what is the good?