HL Deb 26 June 1972 vol 332 cc573-6

2.52 p.m.

BARONESS STOCKS

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will give an assurance that no income tax proposals may be so drafted as to violate the principle that the family allowance should be paid direct to the mother.

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, I assume that the noble Baroness has in mind the proposals of my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer for a tax-credit system which would replace the income tax child allowance and family allowances by a new form of child credit. The question as to whom this credit should normally be paid is one of the matters to be considered following the publication of the Green Paper on the scheme, and the noble Baroness will understand that I cannot anticipate what may be said on this matter in the Green Paper.

BARONESS STOCKS

My Lords, are Her Majesty's Government aware that when a Government Department puts its thoughts on paper—even a Green Paper—it tends to become addicted to those thoughts and has quite a built-in instinct against having them interfered with? Is the noble Earl further aware that the late Miss Rathbone, who was an astute Parliamentarian, used to warn women's organisations to find out what a Civil Service Department was going to do in order that it might not be put to the uncomfortable necessity of having to eat its words?

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, I confess that I find myself in considerable agreement with what the noble Baroness has said, but I suggest that it is easier for Government Departments to eat green words than it is for them to eat white words.

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl, before he encourages this form of digestion, to bear in mind that before family allowances were introduced the women's organisations throughout the country made the strongest representations on the subject, and if this position is reversed it will result in gross injustice?

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, I am not altogether surprised that the noble Baroness rose to ask a supplementary question on this particular matter. I will certainly bear this point in mind, but I should like to say to her and to the noble Baroness, Lady Stocks, that a Green Paper, which I think was a useful innovation on the part of the last Government, is in fact a Green Paper and that my right honourable friend and the Department for which he speaks will welcome representations on that Green Paper when it is published—on this as on any other matters.

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER:

My Lords, in preparing this Green Paper, will the Government bear in mind how far it is the custom for the minority sex in this country to control the expenditure of family allowances for the children in a family?

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, I think the noble Baroness is aware that while in most two-parent families the family allowances are usually drawn by the wife, they can also be drawn by the husband. However I am quite certain that my right honourable friend will pay close attention to the words just uttered by the noble Baroness.

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, can my noble friend the Leader of the House tell me what is the minority sex in a married couple?

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, that is a question on which I will not allow myself to be drawn at this moment.

LORD GARDINER

My Lords, before drafting the Green Paper, will the Government bear in mind that there are still in this country many areas of poverty; that many wives of working men have no idea what their husbands earn unless they happen to read in the papers what they are striking for, and they have to be content with what they have got? Will he keep in mind that one thing that often saves the children is the fact that it is the mother who has the family allowances?

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, I will certainly see that what the noble and learned Lord has just said is brought to the attention of my right honourable friend. I think the whole House will agree that the question of the residual and not unimportant pockets of poverty in this country is something which should be in the minds of any Government, whether or not they are drafting a Green Paper.

BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOE

My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl to remember the last question about husbands drawing family allowances, and to bear in mind that under the present arrangements the husband is allowed to do so only if his wife has previously signed a form giving him authority to do so? That is a situation that we do not want altered.

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, the noble Earl has said that the Government would be prepared to accept representations. Does that mean that we have to fight this battle all over again?

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS

Hear, hear!

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, I do not know why there are these rather premature cries of "Hear, hear!" from the other side of the House. All I said was that when the Green Paper is published (and this is the point of a Green Paper) the Government very much hope to hear the advice and the representations of all those concerned. I was in no way prejudging the contents of that Green Paper.

BARONESS STOCKS

My Lords, while thanking the noble Earl for his answer and his readiness to eat Green Papers as well as any other sort, may I point out that it is a great waste of time to have to eat any paper at all, and that the women's societies will let all hell loose if this proposal is put before the country, even in a Green Paper? It is such a pity not to avoid that.

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, the noble Earl will have to give in, in the end.