§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will activate the Security Council of the United Nations to intervene in the three major current human disasters, namely the Vietnam war, the Burundi massacre, and the Middle East confrontation reflected in the Lod killings.
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE)My Lords, we are always ready to work for Security Council intervention where this would contribute towards keeping international peace and security. The noble Lord, Lord Brockway, has referred to three very differing problems. In none of these cases does it seem likely that a meeting of the Security Council would be helpful at this time.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, does this not illustrate the problem? Is it not the case that there is a dangerous, growing disillusionment with the United Nations because it cannot operate on the great calamaties in the world? Is it not time that its scope were extended from foreign relations between nations to the internal issues which are now becoming more and more devastating: undeclared wars, Burundi, with its massacre, preceded by Bangladesh and Biafra? In the case of the Middle East, is it not welcome that the tendency now, both in the U.S.A. and in U.S.S.R., is to favour this idea of a Geneva Conference of the 1242 parties concerned? Will Her Majesty's Government not do something to deal with these problems?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, with reference to the large question about whether the United Nations should reform its Charter so that it would have the right to enter into the domestic, internal affairs of every country, it has long been agreed among the nations concerned that they must reserve their position on this matter. I do not think that they would ever secure international agreement on it. So far as Vietnam is concerned, as the noble Lord knows, we have asked five times for the reconvening of the Geneva Conference, the last time in June. We hope that eventually there will be some response.
§ LORD DAVIES OF LEEKMy Lords, while thanking the noble Baroness for that reply, and in view of the fact that Her Majesty's Government are one of the co-Chairmen at the Geneva Conference, quite a lot of credit for which could go to the noble Earl, Lord Avon, I should like to ask whether Her Majesty's Government would courteously ask the United States of America if, when there are one-man activities like those of Mr. Henry Kissinger, we might be informed, if it is only privately and secretly, of what the United States propose. While this is difficult, it may help a better understanding and move a little faster towards peace in Vietnam.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, the United States did in fact bring the whole question of Vietnam before the Security Council in 1964 and raised it again in 1966. However, as long as North Vietnam, China and the Soviet Union do not agree that this is a matter for the Security Council, there is nothing that can be done in that way.
LORD JANNERMy Lords, in view of the terrible massacre that occurred at Lod some little time ago, where innocent men, women and children were killed by assassins, deliberately hired by murderous gangs to do the job, may I ask the noble Baroness whether she does not think the Security Council ought to take the matter up at once so as to deal with the question on the basis of peace in the world and 1243 the necessity to prevent incidents of this nature occurring again?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I am sure the whole House would agree that the massacre of these innocent people was very deeply to be regretted. I do not wish to anticipate the Question which the noble Lord, Lord Janner, has on the Order Paper.
§ BARONESS GAITSKELLMy Lords, would the noble Baroness agree that an unrealistic knowledge of the powers of the Security Council is a very dangerous thing when asking Questions of this kind? The Security Council is as good as the countries which make it up: and we know just how good and just how bad they are.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I should just like to say that I agree with everything the noble Baroness has said.
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, while having a great deal of sympathy with what the noble Baroness has said, I should like to ask whether the Minister is aware that the Secretary-General of the United Nations recently issued a statement deploring the fact that the Powers concerned were not using the machinery of the United Nations in the context of the Vietnam war. If it is not profitable, which I doubt, to bring the matter to the Security Council, as Her Majesty's Government are fully competent to do, will they at least express some public support for the position of the Secretary General?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, we have always said, and publicly, in the United Nations and elsewhere, that basically the Charter of the United Nations is a good Charter, but it does depend for its effective working on every single member of it.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, the Question my noble friend put to the noble Baroness was whether the Government would support the view expressed by the Secretary-General that the Security Council ought to be exercising some influence in Vietnam. That was the Question which was put to the noble Baroness. I am not suggesting that she avoided it, but perhaps she would now answer it.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, as I said in an earlier reply, we have always said that as long as China, the Soviet Union and North Vietnam do not consider that the Vietnam war comes within the jurisdiction of the Security Council, it is impossible to do anything about it. That is why, as co-Chairman with the Soviet Union of the Geneva Conference, we felt that that Conference was a better way than taking it to the Security Council in which to try to secure some progress.
§ LORD SEGALMy Lords, would it not be a welcome move by the Government to activate the Security Council about anything?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, if I may say so, I think that is rather a wide question.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, did I make a mistake by suggesting a Geneva Conference on Vietnam? My intention was to suggest it for the problem in the Middle East, and I thought I did. Will Her Majesty's Government support the idea proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Caradon, that there should be a Geneva Conference about the Middle East? And in view of the increasing co-operation of the U.S.A. and the U.S.S.R. on that issue, is that not now practical politics?
BARONESS TWEEDMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, as the noble Lord will know, there is the Jarring Mission and we felt that that was a good beginning We are hopeful that Dr. Jarring will be able to make some progress.