§ 3.17 p.m.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will instruct the British Airways Board, prior to any decision being taken on the closure of the air-ways terminal at Gloucester Road, to conduct an inquiry and make public the assessment of the likely physical hardship caused to passengers in baggage handling, particularly in so far as international flights are concerned.
Earl FERRERSNo, my Lords. B.E.A.'s decision to discontinue check-in facilities at Gloucester Road is a commercial decision in which Her Majesty's Government have no power to intervene. B.E.A. have no plans to close the Terminal itself.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, would the Minister ask the Department to let me have a Written Answer to my Question of June 1, so that we may all know where these responsibilities lie? Is he aware that I have a long and obviously helpful letter from B.E.A. concerning to-day's Question, but this misses the main point? Could the 1112 Minister tell the House when it is expected that these changes for passengers will occur at Gloucester Road Terminal; and, secondly, could he also inform the House what is to happen to the luggage of those passengers at Gloucester Road Terminal who are en route to Heathrow?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, the decision is that the check-in facilities at West London Air Terminal will be discontinued for all flights by the summer of 1973, with phased implementation of this starting earlier in that year. I would add that in the early 1950s, when the Terminal was first built, it was done to accommodate nearly 100 per cent. of the passengers using Heathrow. In the 1960s only 40 per cent. of passengers used it, and now only about 24 per cent. use it. With regard to the second of the noble Baroness's questions, Her Majesty's Government have powers to intervene or to give instructions to the British Airways Board only when the case concerned is of national interest.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, the noble Earl, I am sure inadvertently, has not answered my question. Could he please tell the House what is to happen to the baggage of those passengers using the Terminal en route for Heathrow, after these changes have been made? Finally, is he aware that the trade unions concerned are opposed to this proposal at this stage, and that it is suggested that a committee should be set up? If such a committee is set up, will there be traveller representation upon it?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, the situation is that people who wish to use this Air Terminal will go there with their luggage, and their luggage will be taken on trailers of buses to Heathrow. As to the trade unions' view, all I can tell the noble Baroness is that, much as I appreciate her concern, this is a matter with which B.E.A. is primarily concerned and it is they who will discuss the matter with the unions.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, the noble Earl cannot get away with that. He has still not answered my question. What is going to happen to the baggage of these passengers when it is deposited from the bus at the Heathrow Terminal?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I am sorry if I misunderstood the noble Baroness's question. I thought she asked what was going to happen to the baggage when they went to West London Air Terminal. Am I misunderstanding the noble Baroness?
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYYes, my Lords. I thought I had been very clear. Could the noble Earl tell the House what is to happen to the baggage of those travellers who use the Gloucester Road Air Terminal en route for Heathrow when they are deposited from the bus at Heathrow with their luggage?
EARL FERRERSWhen they are deposited from the bus at Heathrow they will be responsible for taking their luggage to the check-in point.
LORD INGLEWOODMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that though the Government may consider this a commercial decision, the great majority of Her Majesty's subjects look on it as something much wider than that? Furthermore, surely it is something which is common to all civilised capitals to have a terminal in the centre of a city where passengers wishing to travel by air and unable to go to the airport some distance from the centre by motor car, as no doubt Ministers are, can check in their luggage. They can then go by bus for a few shillings, to catch the aircraft. What do Her Majesty's Government intend to do to cater for the needs of this great majority of Her Majesty's subjects?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, as I explained in my original reply, the check-in point only is being closed, and it is being closed because not enough people are using it. The fact is that at the moment many more people go direct to Heathrow and do not use the Terminal. This will make a saving of some £600,000 a year. I quite understand my noble friend's point when he says that people wish to go by coach. They will still be able to do so. It is only the check-in facilities which will be removed.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, could the noble Lord explain why, when I go to this particular point, I always stand in a queue in order to book in? Can he substantiate that reply with any real statistics?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, as I have never been with the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, when he has checked in I cannot possibly comment.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I have never had the pleasure of travelling with the noble Earl. But has he any statistics in this matter?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, have Her Majesty's Government got the statistics which have enabled the noble Earl to make that particular statement that not enough people were checking in to make it economically viable?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, yes, I gave them earlier. When the West London Air Terminal was introduced it was built to take about 100 per cent. capacity. In the 1960's only 40 per cent. of the people who used Heathrow used the West London Air Terminal, and now only 24 per cent. do so. When the rail link is introduced it is expected that this number will be cut by half.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, I should like to ask the noble Earl whether he has any conception of the difficulties of elderly passengers who are put down at the Heathrow Terminal and have to struggle with their luggage? Does the noble Earl use the Heathrow Terminal himself? Has he any idea of the shortage of porters and trolleys? Does he propose that elderly travellers get hold of a trolley and push it to the place for making booking-in arrangements?
§ LORD HARVEY OF PRESTBURYMy Lords, will my noble friend ask B.E.A. to have another look at this matter, bearing in mind the great inconvenience that will be caused to at least 25 per cent. of the travellers? Could the closure of the Gloucester Road station possibly be postponed until the rail link is open and functioning?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I will certainly draw to the attention of B.E.A. the views which have been expressed by noble Lords and the noble Baroness this afternoon. It is B.E.A. which is responsible for this particular terminal. I will 1115 also draw those remarks to the attention of the British Airports Authority, which of course is responsible for the porterage arrangements at London Airport.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, speaking as one of the elderly passengers referred to by my noble friend and who has been in and out of Heathrow in the past week, I should like to ask the Minister whether he is aware that the facilities for moving one's baggage, either from the coach or from a car to the check-in point, are totally inadequate?
§ LORD STRABOLGIMy Lords, I should like to ask the Government whether they are aware that many people have been using Cromwell Road Air Terminal because their luggage is much less likely to get lost than if they go direct to Heathrow? What arrangements are now being made by the Airport authorities to improve the luggage arrangements for those travellers who will go direct to the Airport?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, this is obviously going to be something which the British Airports Authority must look into, considering that there will now be more passengers using Heathrow in view of the closing of the check-in facilities at the West London Air Terminal.
§ BARONESS EMMET OF AMBERLEYMy Lords, as another elderly traveller who has to walk miles and miles at airports and carry luggage, I should like to inquire if B.E.A. could be asked to give consideration to the older generation.
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I am in some difficulty over this matter, because Parliament has set up these various authorities to look after the particular interests concerned. I will certainly draw the noble Baroness's observations to the attention of B.E.A., but it is its responsibility and it is not the Government's. With the greatest of respect, the noble Baroness should address her complaints to B.E.A. and then they can be dealt with.
§ BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOEMy Lords, while entirely 1116 agreeing about the difficulties of elderly travellers, I should like to ask the noble Lord whether he has ever carried two suitcases in one hand, a baby in the other arm, and failed to find even a trolley to put them all on—let alone a porter?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I have carried all of those, but I do not know whether they were in the particular arms in which the noble Baroness had them.
§ VISCOUNT THURSOMy Lords, could the noble Earl give us information in round figures instead of percentages, because the number of passengers travelling through the Terminal has increased, I hope, since it was built and therefore the percentages may be misleading when it comes to examining the total number using it?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I entirely accept the noble Viscount's point. I cannot give him the numbers in round figures, but I can tell him that even though the percentage is now lower than it was in 1950, so is the absolute figure.
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY (LORD ABERDARE)My Lords, may I interrupt at this point? I know how very interested your Lordships are in this matter of air travel and how many of you might have other observations to make on this problem, but my noble friend has undertaken to have further talks with B.E.A. and with the British Airports Authority. I hope that now, after a considerable period of cross-questioning, we may move on to the next question.