§ LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCHMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware of the excessive and dangerous levels of lead found in domestic water supplies in Liverpool and whether they have tendered any advice to the Liverpool Corporation on this matter.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Environment is aware that from tests made over the last two years of water samples taken from houses in the city with lead pipes, fewer than 10 out of 788 were found to exceed significantly the limit for lead content recommended by the World Health Organisation in their European Standards for Drinking Water. The risk to health should not be exaggerated, but it is considered that improved water treatment is necessary. The corporation are aware of the standing advice of my right honourable friend's Department to water undertakers, that lead-solvent water should be treated to render it non-solvent if there are lead pipes in their area. Advice has also been given to the city's medical officer of health by the Chief Medical Officer of Health.
§ LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCHMy Lords, is it not the case that at levels of lead of 5, 10 and even 15 times the maximum suggested by the World Health Organisation have been found in domestic supplies in Liverpool? How soon will it be before this condition is remedied?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, with the greatest respect to the noble Lord, our evidence does not support the statement that he has made. I know that there were reports last week about certain excessive amounts of lead in the water in Liverpool. The city officials have looked at it, our officials have checked it, and the figures the noble Lord gives are not borne out.
§ LORD WYNNE-JONESMy Lords, when the noble Lord says that the figures quoted are inaccurate, does he mean that tests have been made on domestic supplies in the early morning or late in the day? If the tests are not made in the early morning the figures are meaningless, because the lead has been dissolved out of the pipes in the house: this happens overnight.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, the World Health Organisation European Standards lay down that if water is in pipes for more than 16 hours it has a different standard than if it is just passing through. But on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Douglas, there were rather alarming statements made in the Press in the North-West last week which have not been borne out. I take note of what the noble Lord has said. If it is just a matter of a pipe and a tap the simple answer is to run off the first water.
§ LORD WYNNE-JONESMy Lords, The noble Lord is really skating over this matter in the most trivial way. Does he realise that this is a problem that occurs in many parts of the country? Wherever there is soft water there is danger that peat acids have been dissolved in the water, and in consequence of this, whenever the water goes through lead pipes it is bound to dissolve the lead. Therefore there is a grave risk to public health in the first draw off of the water in the morning. This is something that occurs in many parts of the country. Surely the Government are going to do something about it.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I thought that I had dealt with this in my original Answer. We have said in the case of Liverpool that we are not absolutely happy: we think that there is room for further improvement. Further alkaline treatment is probably necessary there. But there is no great danger to health. The noble Lord must not be a scaremonger. There is no danger of any health risk, but we want to be on the safe side. We are recommending that certain measures be taken, and the drawing off of water is an obvious one. There are not many lead pipes nowadays; lead is too valuable. With regard to the odd lead pipes which still exist in Liverpool, as I have said we have given advice.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, am I to understand from what the noble Lord has said that no cases of lead poisoning have been diagnosed?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, if I said "no cases", I think it is true to say that there are no serious cases.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, can I be told how many cases have been diagnosed, serious or otherwise?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I am afraid that without notice I cannot answer that question. But the general evidence is that lead poisoning in drinking water generally is not proving a danger to the public. We are not happy with cases where there is lead poisoning and we have recommended that further alkaline should be added. We are doing our best. I think it is probably up to the City Corporation now to do their best.
§ LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCHMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the European Standard to which he referred is double the normal standard laid down by the W.H.O., and that in any case evidence is accumulating that in young children lead is far more toxic; that these standards have been set in relation to adults, and are in themselves far too high?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, that is really another point. I am not a doctor. The experts meet on these points. I know that the noble Lord is President of the Natural Clear Water Association and has a very high standard in these matters. We have to live in the world as we find it and deal with this problem as practically as we can. This we are trying to do.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, can the noble Lord answer the question put by my noble friend Lord Wynne-Jones? Were these tests made early in the morning or during the day, when the circumstances would be very different?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I cannot give an exact statement on the time when they were made, because I have not been told. The officials of my right honourable friend's Department would not be so dishonest as to take a completely false drawing; they would take an average. As I say, if it is a pipe of short length and a tap, it is only the very first water that needs to be drawn off, and this has been drawn to the attention of many people in cities many times.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, if the officials of the noble Lord's Department took an average, would that not 11 camouflage the fact that the early morning water was heavily impregnated with lead?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONNo, my Lords.