§ 4.10 p.m.
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR NORTHERN IRELAND (LORD WINDLESHAM)My Lords, this may be a convenient moment for me to repeat a Statement which has been made by 890 my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland in another place. The Statement reads as follows:
"With permission, Mr. Speaker, I will make a Statement. The House will wish to be aware of developments in the situation in Northern Ireland since my Statement last Friday.
"The rate of shooting incidents involving the security forces has fallen from the very high figure given in my 891 last Statement, but I must tell the House that they remain at the level of from 50 to 70 a day. The majority have occurred in Belfast. The I.R.A. have again used a rocket launcher, but fortunately caused no casualties and little damage. Six soldiers, a member of the Ulster Defence Regiment and a constable of the R.U.C. have been killed. One of the soldiers lost his life while attempting to defuse a bomb. Nineteen soldiers and two constables of the R.U.C. have been wounded. A civilian was shot dead when he tried to apprehend two terrorists planting a bomb; and I know the House has learned with particular sorrow that a baby boy was killed by an explosion in Strabane yesterday. I am sure the House will wish to express their sympathy with the families concerned.
"Several explosions have caused damage to the centre of Londonderry since my last Statement; and a large explosion caused extensive damage in Portadown. The Army's action against terrorists is continuing. Since the end of the cease-fire, reports indicate that about 150 terrorists have been hit by Army fire.
" The House will wish to know that I have authorised stringent new security measures in both Belfast and Londonderry to protect life and property. These are bound to be irksome to innocent people, but they are necessary if the security forces are to carry out successfully their paramount function to protect the people of all communities and their property.
"Meanwhile, I have embarked on the consultations with the political Parties in Northern Ireland which I mentioned to the House on an earlier occasion with a view to a conference on the political future. In addition, I have made it known that I want all political Parties and individuals who have views on the future arrangements for the governing of Northern Ireland to send those views to me in writing."
My Lords, that ends my right honourable friend's Statement.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that Statement. Certainly we continue to support the Government and the Secre- 892 tary of State for Northern Ireland in resisting the pressures for more violent action, the consequences of which would be unforeseen. I suppose it is a good thing to be able to say that the level of incidents has fallen ; but even so, it is pretty awful to consider that our figures for the number of terrorists hit is a measure of the number of ordinary, innocent, by-standers—and indeed soldiers—who are being hit.
The noble Lord has referred to consultations with political Parties in Northern Ireland. I find this reference a little cryptic. I thought that some consultation had already started with the Social Democratic and Labour Party and with the Northern Ireland Labour Party. I know that the noble Lord has had discussions; but perhaps the consultations referred to in the Statement may be more formal consultations on future political arrangements. Perhaps the noble Lord could explain that a little more. May I ask whether the Government are again intending to talk to some of the Republican leaders in the South, whether the Government of Eire or the Southern Irish Labour Party which, like the Northern Irish Labour Party, has been very much a force in favour of reconciliation and against violence? Anything the noble Lord can say in relation to talks with the Government of Eire will be helpful.
This leads one to ask the question whether the noble Lord is hopeful that the further discussions that have taken place with some of the terrorists or the Provisionals may lead to a chance of a revival of the cease-fire. On the last occasion I said that my opinion was that the I.R.A. Provisionals did not want a cease-fire. Since then it has been suggested to me by people I believe to be sincere, and by articles in the Sunday Times, that they do not want the truce to break down. In this case, the question of what would be the wish of the overwhelming majority of the people in the North and South is a very open one. It is open to the I.R.A. Provisionals to have regard to that and to revive the truce which was broken over Lenadoon. One is not clear whether this was the occasion of the unfortunate breakdown of the truce or merely an incident which led to it.
§ LORD GLADWYNMy Lords, we on these Benches should like to express our sympathy, as the Government have already done, with the families of those involved in the latest terrible incidents. My first question arises out of the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton. Has there been any positive response so far to the invitation of Mr. Whitelaw to Parties and individuals to come into consultation with a view to a conference? I suppose that Mr. Whitelaw has already been discussing these grave matters with his own Advisory Council. I do not know whether such discussions have been profitable or not. I hope so. Finally, I imagine the Government are now at least considering what they are going to do if the present terrible situation in Northern Ireland gets worse, or much worse. For instance, if many more of our soldiers are murdered, do they contemplate the employment of more heavily armoured vehicles for the soldiers' protection, not, in the last resort, excluding tanks?
§ 4.20 p.m.
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, both the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition and the noble Lord who spoke on behalf of the Liberal Party, Lord Gladwyn, asked about the reference in the Statement to consultations. It is quite true that there have been a series of meetings and discussions with representatives of various political Parties, including the S.D.L.P., over recent weeks. But these have related to specific issues and, as the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, correctly surmised, what we are now talking about are the arrangements for a conference on the political future of Northern Ireland. A meeting took place with representatives of the Unionist Party this week at which the Secretary of State made known his views on this point. There is little doubt that the Unionist Party will respond. Approaches are now being made to other Parties and other individuals to put forward their own positive views about what they would like to see happening in the future in Northern Ireland.
Regular contact is maintained with the Government of the Republic. The Secretary of State will be meeting their Foreign Minister, Dr. Hillery, when he is in London tomorrow. Also, there have 894 been meetings with members of the Southern Ireland Labour Party from time to time in the past, including Mr. Conor Cruise O'Brien and Dr. John O'Connell. It is not for me to pronounce on the attitude of the I.R.A. towards the ceasefire. All I can say is that everyone who is concerned to see an end to the suffering and tragedy in Northern Ireland must hope that there will be a resumption of the cease-fire as soon as possible, and on a permanent basis.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, I associate myself with everything that has been said in condemnation of this murderous gang which, though it may appear small in numbers, is vast in proportion to the size of the Northern Ireland population. May I ask two questions? The first is whether in the area where there has been this large evacuation of the Catholic population the Provisional I.R.A. have now agreed to suspend their military operations and whether there will be some response on behalf of the British military to withdraw their presence from that area. Secondly, while welcoming the suggestion of these discussions by political Parties, may I ask whether Her Majesty's Government contemplate that they proceed if progessively encouraged to a discussion with representatives of the Republic of Ireland as well? And may not this be the method by which a Council for the whole of Ireland dealing with common problems could be established?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, unfortunately there is still a great deal of shooting in the Lenadoon area. Nor is there any indication that the Provisionals have decided to suspend their operations, although we must all earnestly hope that they will agree to do so in the interests of those who live in the area. Regarding the Republic of Ireland I think that I covered that point in my earlier reply to the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether the Fire Services have suffered any casualties? One does not hear anything about them, but their work must be extremely dangerous. I do not know whether my noble friend would like to say anything about them.
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, I am afraid that the Fire Services have had 895 some casualties. I am delighted to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the two Fire Authorities, the Northern Ireland Fire Authority and the Belfast Fire Service, and to the contribution they have made. It has been quite outstanding over a period of three years. Many of the firemen in Northern Ireland are part-time and they are called out at short notice. They have their own work to do, but they turn out at short notice in order to serve the community. The Fire Services have shown remarkable courage and fortitude and we are all greatly in their debt.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, can the noble Lord say whether the conversations between the Leader of the Opposition in the other place and members of the I.R.A. has been conveyed to his right honourable friend the Secretary of State ; and, if so, with what result? The noble Lord referred to representations made to the Eire Government. He referred to a meeting between the Secretary of State and the Foreign Minister of Eire. What is the nature of those representations and what has been the result of them?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, the Leader of the Opposition in another place has already given my right honourable friend, Mr. Whitelaw, a preliminary account of his meeting last Tuesday with the Provisional I.R.A. leaders, and will be giving him a fuller report to-day. This meeting was arranged entirely on the initiative of the Leader of the Opposition in another place and Her Majesty's Government were not concerned with the arrangements. The Foreign Minister of the Republic of Ireland will be in London to-morrow, as I said earlier. While he is here he will be calling in to see the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. It is not possible for me to speculate to-day on what they will be discussing.
LORD NUNBURNHOLMEMy Lords, could Mr. Whitelaw make an appeal to all Parties to surrender arms and explosives which are held by people in Northern Ireland and try to get people to bring pressure to bear on their neighbours if they know that they have arms to surrender?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, that is very much in line with my right 896 honourable friend's policy. The difficulty lies between making an appeal of this kind and getting people to act on it.
§ LORD ANNANMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware—I am sure he is—that there is great support for the political initiative taken by the Secretary of State several months ago? Is he also aware that there is a view that time is running out and that it is necessary to have a further political initiative, on the lines of some kind of long-term propositions concerning the future of the communities in Northern Ireland, with reference to the Border and to many other things, such as security? Is it not likely that, unless such political initiative is undertaken, we shall be unable to get back to discussions in a cease-fire atmosphere rather than in the present deplorable state of terrorism?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, I am afraid that time is always running out in Northern Ireland. The important thing is to maintain a consistent policy and not become carried along by events. It is vitally important not to be deflected from a considered policy. At the same time, I accept a good deal of what the noble Lord said. There is a need to be open-minded and responsive, and to see what particular policy seems the most appropriate to meet the circumstances of the time.
§ LORD ANNANMy Lords, would not the noble Lord also agree that while there is the utmost repugnance and loathing of the terrorism in which the I.R.A. carry out, nevertheless the Secretary of State is to be congratulated on initiating conversations with them, just as in fact Lloyd-George and his Administration had to initiate conversations with Mr. Michael Collins and Mr. De Valera in the 1920s.
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, my right honourable friend made clear in his Statement last week concerning his meeting with the Provisional I.R.A. the reasons why he decided to meet them. He did so, after the cease-fire, after they had ceased to engage in violence, in order to see whether by so doing there was any contribution he could make which would help to save life.