ROBENS REPORT: SAFETY AND HEALTH AT WORK (Hansard, 19 July 1972)

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
My Lords, with permission, I will now repeat a Statement made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Employment. The Statement is as follows:
"With permission, Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a Statement.
"The Report of the Committee on Safety and Health at Work has been published to-day and copies are available in the Vote Office. I should like to express the Government's gratitude to Lord Robens and his Committee for their careful examination of this difficult subject.
"The Report recommends the unification within a single comprehensive framework of legislation of the main Statutes bearing on safety and health at work and certain aspects of the protection of the public; also the establishment under my broad policy direction of a national Safety and Health Authority to replace the present range of separate administrative arrangements. The main central inspectorates 786 enforcing the present legislation would be brought together within the Authority and protection would be extended to almost all people at work.
"These and other recommendations are designed to create a framework within which employers and work-people jointly can achieve a more self-regulating system for securing safety and health at work; in which the inspectorates can be used more effectively in assisting employers and work-people as well as concentrating more effectively on particular serious problems; and in which statutory regulations can be kept as simple and up-to-date as possible.
"The recommendations are far-reaching and the Report will obviously require careful study by all concerned, both inside and outside Government. Nevertheless, the Government are convinced that reform is now a matter of considerable urgency in an area of such great importance to all employees and it is their intention to take early action towards achieving the broad objectives of the Report. I am therefore giving urgent consideration to the specific recommendations of the Committee. In the first place there will be consultation with the C.B.I., the T.U.C., local authorities and others concerned about how best to achieve these 787 broad objectives. I hope this preliminary consultation will be completed by the autumn so that intensive work can then begin on the preparation of a Bill."

§ LORD SHACKLETON
My Lords, we are grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, who moves from one field to another to give the House all the information that he can. I feel that I ought not to press him too hard about this Statement and I should like to welcome it. When we have had a chance to read the Report of Lord Robens of Woldingham and his Committee I am quite sure that we shall be equally pleased, although I must reserve judgment until then. Let me say how pleased I am that there is to be a unification of regulations. Anyone who has sought to administer the different regulations knows that the problem of whether a building is a factory or not within the meaning of the Act can add to the difficulties. Obviously, unification is highly desirable, but I am not clear about the position of local authorities. I have only glanced quickly at the Report but there seems to me to be an area of possible difficulty. No doubt that is one of the matters which the Government will look at.
Regarding the proposal for the national Safety and Health Authority, I take it that this will be an independent authority—when I say "independent authority" I mean analogous to any one of a number of public authorities, but answerable, so far as one can tell from the Statement, to the Secretary of State for Employment. We particularly welcome the fact that the arrangements proposed are likely to be self-regulating and that the role of the trade unions and consultation is to be greatly strengthened. This seems to me highly desirable from the point of view of industrial relations and safety. Certain noble Lords have been stressing the need for this for a long time, especially in order to meet new hazards. I refer in particular to my noble friend Lord Crook who, year after year, has pursued this subject. I am sure that he will want to consider this matter pretty closely and I think we ought to have a debate at not too distant a time, when the Government have had 788 a chance to consider the matter but before they come to any conclusions. This is a subject of profound importance. There were something like 268,000 notifiable industrial accidents last year. Although many of them were trivial there is no doubt that the price we are paying in respect of industrial accidents and ill-health is enormous, and the loss is infinitely more than is caused by strikes.

§ LORD WADE
My Lords, I should like to join in the thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, for repeating the Statement, and also in the expressions of gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Robens of Woldingham, and his Committee for producing the Report. It must have involved a great deal of hard work. The concept that legislation on safety and health at work should be unified seems to me one that should be welcomed. Like the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, I shall be interested to know which Minister will be responsible. It is proposed that there should be a Safety and Health Authority. I imagine that this will come under the responsibility of the Department of Employment; but on the other hand, health at work is closely related to health in other aspects of life and comes very much under the Health Services. But perhaps the noble Lord can deal with that point. The noble Lord will be aware that many firms have appointed safety officers and there is an Institute of Industrial Safety Officers which I am sure is known to him. Can he say how they will fit into the picture in the future, when we have this unification of safety and health at work? Finally, when is it intended that the proposed Bill shall be introduced to Parliament?

§ LORD CROOK
My Lords, may a mere Back-Bencher who, for the last 25 years, has been raising this subject in this House, dare to utter a comment? I should like to ask whether the Minister realises how grateful we all are to Lord Robens of Woldingham for this Report, and for the Statement the Government have made which talks about future legislation. Also, may I ask whether the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, is aware that on the date when my right honourable friend, Mrs. Barbara Castle, who was then head of the Department of Employment and Productivity, appointed 789 this Committee, those of us who used to raise this subject rather frequently had discontinued doing so in the belief that we should be giving the Government a chance to present this Report to us and to talk about it. I should like to press the point made by my noble friend Lord Shackleton, that before the Government get too far they will let us have a debate. We have put down no Motion for the last two years. I hope that during the slack period which we so often have after the Loyal Address to the Throne, the Government will see fit to put down a Motion to take note of these matters.

§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILL
My Lords, in view of the fact that the noble Lord said that the appropriate Department will be coming to some conclusions in the autumn, would it be possible to have a debate on this very important subject before the House rises? The Department would then know how some of us feel about this Report.

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
My Lords, I should like to thank all noble Lords for the reception they have given to this long-awaited announcement. The noble Lord, the Leader of the Opposition, welcomed the Report but, very appropriately, reserved judgment until he had had time to read and inspect it. He asked about the position of local authority inspectors. The Report recognises the important part which local authorities have to play, and the recommendation is that their work should be more effectively co-ordinated and integrated with the work of the area officers of the new national Authority. In all probability this will mean some reorganisation of the work covered by what are now the factory inspectors and the local authorities, but the general intention is that there should be some transfer, in the industrial fields, from the local authority inspectorate to the central inspectorate. There would not be a complete absorption by the central inspectorate of the local authority inspectorate.
On the question of a debate, I may say that we had a very useful debate two years ago. I have taken careful note of what the noble Lords, Lord Shackleton and Lord Crook, have said about this subject and shall most certainly convey their remarks to my noble friend who is not in his place at the moment. The noble Lord, Lord Wade, asked which Minister 790 would be responsible, and the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, asked about the general relationship of the proposed Authority to Ministers. The Report recommends that the Secretary of State for Employment should be the responsible Minister, but the relationship of the proposed Authority to Ministers and Parliament will clearly have to be weighed very carefully, along with the Report's proposals generally. The Report proposes that the Authority should be autonomous in its day-to-day operations and that it should have its own budget and staff. The chairman would have an authoritative voice; but the Report clearly recognises the principle of subordination of the Authority to the Minister and so to Parliament. I hope that answers the question I was asked.
Co-ordination between safety and health is extremely important. We have had fairly recent debates on the Employment Medical Advisory Service, and the Report recognises the close links which are necessary between the E.M.A.S. and the Health Service. Clearly the Authority will need immediate access to medical advice, but the Government will have to study the Report's recommendations very carefully. I cannot answer the question about the Institute of Safety Officers. Perhaps the noble Lord would care to study the Report himself, so far as that point is concerned. It is intended that an advisory committee on regulations and codes shoud be set up. No doubt it will have its part to play there, as elsewhere. Noble Lords will not expect me to say now when the Bill will be introduced. I have given an indication of the intention to reach preliminary conclusions by the autumn, and I would say to the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, that there will be time after that to influence any legislation which may be drafted, without necessarily having a debate between now and the Summer Recess.

§ LORD SHACKLETON
My Lords, we all appreciate that the Government are approaching this matter with a sense of urgency. I should like to comment on an important matter. Consideration will have to be given to whether the various inspectors and others will continue to be civil servants or will have to go outside the Civil Service. The Government can hardly have come to a conclusion, but 791 these things are disturbing when they happen. Following what my noble friend, Lady Summerskill, said, I should just comment that this is a very nice point about timing. We should like the Government to choose the right moment when they have thought about the situation and have formulated views without having committed themselves in any way. Whether that should be in the autumn or before the new Session is a matter of consideration on which we rely on the Government to help us.

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
My Lords, I have taken careful note of what the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, said about the question of timing. I am aware of the fact that the implementation of the Report's recommendations would affect the position of the staffs of the enforcement agencies and of their parent departments. I can assure the noble Lord that the Government will make certain that staff implications are taken fully into account and are discussed with the relevant staff associations before any definite decisions are taken.