§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what conclusions were reached at the Ministerial Meeting of Governments associated in SEATO.
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, the conclusions of the Council meeting held on June 27–28 in Canberra are set out in detail in the final communiqué which has been placed in the Library of the House. The Council discussed developments in South East Asia, with particular reference to the North Vietnamese attack on the Republic of Vietnam, the changing political climate following President Nixon's visits to Peking and Moscow, and the need for further efforts to help regional members to resist the increasing subversion in the area. The Council agreed that the Organisation must be flexible and responsive to changes in the area.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, while thanking the Minister for that reply, I would ask him: is it not the case that this military alliance was stillborn from the very beginning, under the misconception of a monolithic Communist threat to South-East Asia by Russia and China? Has it not been utterly irrelevant to the wars in Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos, and the French nuclear threats? Has the Minister seen the remark of The Times that "though long dead, SEATO makes a handsome and useful mummy"? Would if not be truer to say that it makes a hideous and exuding mummy and that 106 the Government are pathetically trying to give it the kiss of life?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, that may be the view of the noble Lord but it is not the view of the Government. We signed the Manila Treaty in 1954 with a number of other States. Our aims were set out in the preamble to the Treaty and the Pacific Charter at the same time. These were the protection of peace and freedom, the promotion of economic progress, and the right of self-determination of peoples. We have yet to reach the peace and security in the area to which the Pacific Charter looked forward. We believe it is right, therefore, to make our contributions to these aims through SEATO.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, is it not a fact that even the original intention has been overtaken by events: the ANZUS Pact between America, Australia and New Zealand; the defence agreement between Australia, New Zealand and the South-East Asian nations; Malaysia's neutralisation; and the probability that the Australian Labour Party will win the elections in November and bury SEATO for ever?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, obviously we all welcome the fact that tensions in that area are less than they were. I can do little better than refer the noble Lord to what my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary said: that one does not take one's raincoat off at the end of a thunderstorm simply because one sees a small patch of blue sky; one tends to wait until the patch gets larger.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, can the noble Earl indicate the size of the military forces of SEATO, which countries contribute to it, and what economic resources SEATO has to assist the economic development of South-East Asia?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, that is a very long question which would require a long answer. I can say that some British forces have for some years been declared to SEATO for embodiment into various contingency plans. Such a forces declaration requires no automatic commitment to provide forces. Our share of the budget of SEATO is about £100,000.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, can the noble Earl answer the second part of 107 my supplementary question: what economic resources has SEATO for economic development in South-East Asia?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, the object of SEATO is not necessarily economic development in the way of the Asian Development Bank or the Colombo Plan; but SEATO is at present undertaking various economic projects in Thailand and the Philippines which have counter-insurgent value.
§ LORD GLADWYNMy Lords, do not the Government agree that even if SEATO does not do much good, at least it does no harm?
§ LORD DAVIES OF LEEKMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the statement made by the last speaker is absolutely confirmed by the outlook of Sir Anthony Eden (as he then was), who pathetically tried to persuade Mr. Foster Dulles not to create this useless non-organisation?—but, in fact, since it pleased them at the moment and did no harm, they might as well let it exist. As it is now, the sooner we let it die the better.
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, we believe in SEATO as a multilateral organisation and believe that it still has useful work to do. While it can do this work we believe that it should continue.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, I am sorry to come in again. Is it not the case that both Sir Alec Douglas-Home and the communiqué emphasised that SEATO is for the purpose of repressing subversion. Does this mean that SEATO is to defend reactionary feudalist régimes against the freedom of the peasant serfs in those territories?
§ LORD ORR-EWINGAnd in Ulster.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, may I ask why we are not realistic about these matters? Is not the noble Earl aware that SEATO was created as a defence organization; that in fact the ANZUS Pact 108 was created before SEATO was created; that there is no defence organisation available but that the only useful purpose of SEATO is to enable Ministers from SEATO countries to have a little relaxation by attending the conferences in the area?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I could not agree with the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell. I do not believe that he really expects that one would do so. SEATO is fundamentally a pact to try to preserve peace in the area of South-East Asia, and we believe that it has a contribution to make.
§ VISCOUNT MONCKTON OF BRENCHLEYMy Lords, would not my noble friend agree that we should perhaps ask the Governments of Singapore (which I would not have thought came in the category previously mentioned) and of Malaysia, to see what they think? Secondly, would my noble friend not think that the statement by the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, who represented a Government which supported SEATO, may show that the Opposition are now against it? Is that true?
EARL FERRERSMy Lord's I could not possibly answer the last of my noble friend's supplementaries, but perhaps at some juncture the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, might like to. In answer to my noble friend's other point, Malaysia and Singapore are of course not members of SEATO, and any pacts and arrangements which are made with them are totally different from those made with SEATO.
§ LORD DAVIES OF LEEKMy Lords, they need not bother to join it.