HL Deb 26 January 1972 vol 327 cc330-2

3 p.m.

LORD GARDINER

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government to whom the Parliamentary draftsmen are responsible and what proposals the Government have for instituting a proper system of recruiting additional draftsmen and for their training.]

THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (EARL JELLICOE)

My Lords, the Prime Minister has responsibility for the Parliamentary Counsel Office; the legislative programme to which they work is under the supervision of the Lord President of the Council. There are no immediate proposals for changing the system of recruiting and training.

LORD GARDINER

My Lords, while thanking the noble Earl for that Answer, may I ask whether, if we are ever to get a simpler form of Parliamentary drafting, this would not be more likely to be achieved if the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, rather than the First Lord of the Treasury, were responsible for the Parliamentary draftsmen? Secondly, is the noble Earl aware that in the recent Report of the Select Committee on Procedure in another place there was disclosed the fact of a grave shortage of Parliamentary draftsmen? Does not the noble Earl think that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor would perhaps be more likely than the Prime Minister to be able to recruit lawyers?

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, I have great admiration for the prose style of my noble and learned friend who sits on the Woolsack; but, without casting any aspersion on my colleague, I am not absolutely certain that I would go along completely with the noble and learned Lord in suggesting that we should necessarily get better drafting if it were the responsibility of my noble and learned friend. So far as recruiting is concerned, I am aware of the Report of the Select Committee. The noble and learned Lord will, of course, be aware that the staff of the Parliamentary Counsel Office has shown a distinct increase in numbers in the last ten years—from 15 to 22 or 24, depending upon how one looks at it. But the Select Committee in another place have recommended that there should be a deep inquiry into the form and drafting of legislation. The Government have accepted that recommendation and it may be that that could become a suitable forum for looking further into this matter should there be any general disposition to do so.

LORD GARDINER

My Lords, may I put one further question? Is the noble Earl aware of the surprise with which the Select Committee learned that, while we hold training courses for Commonwealth Parliamentary draftsmen, we have never had any training courses for ourselves? Does not the noble Earl think that the Lord Chancellor is perhaps better suited than the Prime Minister to institute such training courses?

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, again I find it difficult to choose between my two colleagues in this respect. I should like to draw the attention of the House (because I am sure that the noble and learned Lord is aware of this) to the fact that it is hoped to start a course on legislation on the Statute Book at London University during the next academic year.

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, is not the noble Earl the Leader of the House aware that, while the Prime Minister is technically responsible, it is the noble Earl himself who, as I did when I was in his position, carries the day-to-day responsibility? Is this not still so? Would he agree that we all owe an enormous debt to the Parliamentary draftsmen who, due to the inability of Governments of any kind to make up their minds about legislation, often carry a quite unreasonable burden; and that it is this which accounts frequently for the shortage of draftsmen? If he is considering training plans for Parliamentary draftsmen would he also consider what further training courses are necessary in the Lord Chancellor's Department?

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, I am aware of my day-to-day responsibilities—only too well aware of them! What the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition has said is correct in this respect. I should like to take this opportunity—and I remember saving the same thing a week ago—of echoing what the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition has said about the debt we owe to our Parliamentary draftsmen. The good sense they make of the sometimes rather extraordinary instructions which they receive from Ministers from time to time is quite remarkable.

LORD MAYBRAY-KING

My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that the tribute that he and the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition have paid to the Parliamentary draftsmen is shared by the whole House? Their skill and patient work in a unique field of the process of law making should be admired by everybody in this country.

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, I am aware of this. I am also aware that there is perhaps no one in this House who could speak with such authority on this matter as the noble Lord.