PORTON DOWN RESEARCH ESTABLISHMENT (Hansard, 20 January 1972)

§ LORD BROCKWAY
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY (LORD ABERDARE)
My Lords, Her Majesty's Government have no such intention at present, though the question of which Department of State should be responsible for this establishment is kept under review.

§ LORD BROCKWAY
My Lords, while welcoming the phrase at present "may I ask the Minister another question? In view of the fact that the Geneva Disarmament Convention which was initiated by our Government now outlaws biological warfare, and in the United States of America biological laboratories are being closed, is there not a great deal to he said for the view that Porton Down, which does so much for health purposes, should now be brought under the Department of Health?

§ LORD ABERDARE
My Lords, I am grateful for the noble Lord's appreciation of the fact that the matter is still under consideration. But of course, as he realises, the biological warfare convention still foresees the continuance of prophylactic, protective and other peaceful research of the kind which is currently carried on at this establishment; and in America, as I understand the position. 168 although certain establishments have been closed they still run establishments which will continue the peaceful research which is required.

§ LORD BROCKWAY
My Lords. I wonder whether I may ask a further supplementary question. Is it not the case that Professor Harris, who has been appointed as the new head of Porton Down, has been given a brief to expand the activity for civilian purposes, and has he not himself written an article in the New Scientist urging that Porton Down should be transferred to the Ministry of Health?

§ LORD ABERDARE
My Lords, it is perfectly true that there is a big health interest at this establishment, but there is still a division as to about two-thirds defence work to one-third health work. With regard to the article written by Professor Harris, which I have read with great interest, I think the purport of it is rather more on the lines that there may be a need for a change in the future than actually advocating one at present, and in my view the headline which appeared in The Times over this report was slightly misleading.

§ LORD PLATT
My Lords, are Her Majesty's Government aware that, for the reasons that have been stated, there are considerable advantages in delay over this decision.

§ LORD ABERDARE
Yes, my Lords.

§ LORD CHALFONT
My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether it is true that it is the policy of Her Majesty's Government, in the light of the Geneva Convention and of the American statement in this matter, not to engage in any research into the manufacture of microbiological weapons? Is it not therefore true that such researches as will take place are for peaceful purposes? Is it not therefore urgent that this matter should be removed from the Ministry of Defence and brought under one of the civilian ministries?

§ LORD ABERDARE
My Lords, I can confirm that the research which goes on there is for peaceful purposes. As I said in reply to the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, two-thirds of the research is still directly for peaceful purposes concerned with defence and general basic research.

§ LORD SHINWELL
My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether it would not be reasonable to hive-off from Porton Down that part of the research which is primarily devoted to health, leaving the purely defence aspects to Porton Down? The defence aspect would be of considerable value in the event of a conflict. Therefore, would it not be more desirable to do that than to transfer the whole of the Porton Down establishment to the Ministry of Health?

§ LORD ABERDARE
My Lords, I think this would be a misuse of resources, because in fact certain highly important health discoveries have come through basic research which has been for defence purposes, one particular example being the Porton needle-less injector which was recently used with great effect in East Pakistan.

§ LORD CHALFONT
My Lords, I do not wish to prolong this exchange, or to embarrass the Minister, but would he mind explaining just exactly what he means by the defence aspect of the research for peaceful purposes?

§ LORD ABERDARE
My Lords, it is concerned with the detection of possible microbiological warfare against this country in the future.

§ LORD ORR-EWING
My Lords, would the noble Lord tell us whether the U.S.S.R. has closed down or reduced any of its efforts in this field? If not, is it not of supreme importance that we should keep a defence capability in this important research department? Would the noble Lord also bear in mind that there is a strong cross-pollination when one collects together a number of erudite scientists, and there would seem to be an advantage in keeping the health side and the defence side together in one establishment rather than hiving them off, because the two will work together and will produce civil applications which, as the noble Lord has suggested, are wholly beneficial?

§ LORD ABERDARE
My Lords, I agree generally with what my noble friend has said. So far as the Soviet Union is concerned, although the original initiative came from us and was not accepted by the Soviet Union, the present draft is a Soviet draft and we hope it will shortly be available for signature.

§ LORD BALOGH
My Lords, is there such a thing as poisonous pollen?

§ LORD ABERDARE
My Lords, I do not think that is a question for Her Majesty's Government.

§ LORD CONESFORD
My Lords, which Government Department is responsible for the cross-pollination of scientists?